Wednesday, March 17, 2010

Call your Representative on Health Care--NOW

With the Health Care vote on the horizon the political atmosphere is heated at best. The strong arm tactics, sweetheart deals, Hollywood antics, intimidation, deception and secrecy has only made the debate more intense. None of those strategies have met with much favorability with the American people, regardless of whether it’s all been done before, it’s the status quo, or it’s what has to be done to get the bill passed. I find the behavior of our 111th Congress shameful. The Health Care bill is an extremely important piece of legislation that will affect EVERY American and it should be taken seriously and treated with the utmost respect—along with the American people.

Our Representatives have been elected as the voice of the American people. Whether they like the Health Care bill or not is irrelevant. Their job is to speak for their constituents. They have a duty to find out whether their constituents like or dislike this bill then go back to Congress and vote on the bill from the results they have accumulated from their respective districts. They are not supposed to vote on Legislation based on bribery, intimidation or deception.

It is our duty, as constituents, to let our voices be heard. The only way we can do that is to call, write or email our respective Representatives. Here is a link for the House and one for the Senate. Look up your officials and tell him or her how you feel he or she should vote on the Health Care bill. THAT is YOUR duty as a United States Citizen as it’s your Representative’s duty to listen to YOU.


Cross-posted @ Rational Nation USA

227 comments:

  1. Your right. It is our duty as citizens to let our congressman know that we don't support this bill that being shoved down our throats. This is crunch time. Why can't these people just agree to some common sense health reforms? It wouldn't take over 2000 pages to create a bill that would benefit the American people, and not the interest groups or politicians. Thank goodness my Rep. is voting against this Bill. Rep. Altmire's district is literally a street away from mine so I'm letting him know that I want him to vote no on this bill and listen to the majority of the people in this country that want to start over.

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  2. Teresa: Almire’s MY Rep too! I’m in Gibsonia, West Deer. My goodness, we’re neighbors! What a SMALL world!


    Altmire is getting some major heat. I heard him on the Quinn & Rose show this morning and Almire IS listening to US. About friggin time. I mean, it’s ONLY their job!

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  3. Active politics? You mean writing in all caps and screaming isn't the way to do it?

    I'm on board with ya.

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  4. Pamela,
    It is a small world!! :) Good to know a friend like you is in the neighborhood. I listen to Quinn & Rose also(at least when I wake up in time).

    I live in Brentwood and am in this weird line of districting where I'm just in Tim Murphy's district but might as well be in Altmire's too.

    Its good to hear Altmire is starting to listen now.

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  5. How long will this country allow these liberals to lie so much?

    I love your blog!

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  6. Blue: I deleted the cowardly “Anonymous” troll.

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  7. Dennis Kooksinich that dirty, slimy little worm has announced he will vote for the bill. I guess he was bought off by a ride in Air-force One.
    I guess that integrity is for sale to anybody at any price these days.

    I'll tell you one thing, if this thing passes, the Dims who voted for it will face a long hot summer more miserable than anything they could have imagined. And in November the unemployment lines will be a bit longer.
    I guess he was just waiting to be wined and dined by obammy, and now that he was, everything is Cool!
    Clearly, his flip-flop since being a firm "NO" just 48 hours ago was bought and paid for. Was he also instructed exactly when to make this announcement. What a joke this man is. What can the people of his district be thinking when they select him to represent them?

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  8. Right is Right: Are you the REAL one or the FAKE one? And does the REAL Right is Right know about you?

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  9. My Country: Thank you and welcome. How long will this country allow them to lie? I hope not long. I’ve always hated lying--I'm sure most people do.

    I’ve been waiting for Obama to keep his promise for “the most transparent government ever” and “change from the status quo”. All I’ve seen so far is more of the same, if not worse. Back room deals, whispering “sweet nothings” into the ears of Congressmen behind closed doors, intimidation, bribery, etc., all of which has been done before but should NOT be done--period. THAT is not how the political process should be done, IMO. We the People have a right to know what’s going on, but our officials on the Hill have treaded all over us, shredded our Constitution and treated us with less and less regard than ever before. If this bill passes there are going to be some angry Americans and I believe it’s going to cause quite a stir.

    Congress, pass this bill at your own peril--is my warning.

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  10. My Country and Pam, great comment! You are reflecting my own inner fears about the insidious nature of this administration.
    How else should we interpret a gaggle of czars who seem to be openly praising or aligning themselves with Mao Ze Dong?
    the credibility of the sinister force in the Oval Office, and his fellow deformed souls with their paws on the levers of power inside the beltway, the credibility is as beyond reform as a terminally ill patient is beyond treatment.
    How this freak of a narcissist made it to the presidency of the USA is truly scary.
    It’s getting scary out there for sure…

    BYW, Pamela D. Hart said...

    Right is Right: Are you the REAL one or the FAKE one?


    Real is Relative.

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  11. Nancy Pelosi said in a news conference yesterday, while discussing use of the extra-constitutional ”deeming rule” that would allow skittish members to avoid actually voting on the Senate health-care bill, that “we will do what is necessary to pass a health care bill.” Ordinarily that would be simply political rhetoric. But in this situation, in which President Obama, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi seem determine to ram through a deeply unpopular bill despite ever mounting political cost to themselves and their party, one has to wonder.

    “we will do what is necessary to pass a health care bill.”

    Well So will we Nancy! ....On Election Day!
    The Constitution means nothing to these Communists.

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  12. Pamela wrote,

    "and it should be taken seriously and treated with the utmost respect"

    To bad the Republicans did not treat the issue seriously, or with respect.
    They used the issue to attack the President, disrupt the town hall health care meetings where a serious discussion among Americans could have taken place, they offered a 4 page alternative (outright joke) they claim they were left out of the process even though their amendments are part of the bill, I watched the committee hearings on C-SPAN and saw the Republican amendments debated-voted on-and passed or not.
    If this bill fails, what will Republicans offer as a solution to our health care problems? Nothing! What did they offer during the last televised meeting? Nothing!
    What about those voters who by a large majority want this bill, but live in a district that has a Republican representative who will not vote for this bill no matter what they say?
    How naive can you be? You don't think most of the legislation passed in Congress in the last 220 years did no have deals attached to them? Why should this bill be any different?
    Just yesterday an 11 year old child was attacked by the Republican mouthpieces (Beck and Rush) because he spoke out for this bill, and it was not the first time Republicans have attacked children for speaking out on political issues.
    The Republicans have lied about this issue since the beginning. Polls still show a majority of Americans want health care reform. Republicans want to kill health care reform, not just this bill. Is that reflecting their voters views?
    It's not true that an elected representative's only duty is to their voters. Their duty is to uphold the Constitution and the laws of the United States. If Mississippi wants slavery, or segregation, their elected representative is still expected to uphold the Constitution.
    There is no such thing as a perfect bill, so to reject this bill as being imperfect, is irrational.
    I am against this bill, and have stated so many times, but I am against even more, the hate filled, divisive tactics Republicans have used to define the debate. They have been hypocritical and dishonest.

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  13. What I would like to know is how can anyone at this late hour be undecided. Or are they still holding out for a better bribe!

    Obama is a punk community organizer who doesn't deserve one person giving up their seat for and they know it. If you think there's a principled liberal look at Kucinich. His wife is even going to joining Michelle Obummer on this childhood obesity scam..I had to laugh today when they said McDonalds is going to offer any size soda this summer for a buck.
    The liberals think this country has reached the point that everybody can be bought off but they don't know there's a heck of a lot of real American who don't believe on being on the dole. It's a pathway to equalized hell.

    And now under their glorious leadership in the new socialist future that we all should want to be part of, America has already been given the finances of a banana republic. Why not go all the way and just pass it without a vote...period? If you can't do it the right and legal way, then do it anyway they want to as long as they get it done!
    I guess Obama, Pelosi and Reid will rule the United States like a banana republic from this week on. We are no longer a “nation of laws.
    The whole thing has gone to beyond scary.

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  14. TOM said...
    Just yesterday an 11 year old child was attacked by the Republican mouthpieces (Beck and Rush) because he spoke out for this bill, and it was not the first time Republicans have attacked children for speaking out on political issues.


    What happened top the little old lady in the wheel chair?

    And who can refute the dying wishes of a 10 year old child from the ghetto?

    And how can we ever forget this one:

    "I got a letter — I got a note today from one of my staff — they forwarded it to me — from a woman in St. Louis who had been part of our campaign, very active, who had passed away from breast cancer. She didn’t have insurance. She couldn’t afford it, so she had put off having the kind of exams that she needed. And she had fought a tough battle for four years. All through the campaign she was fighting it, but finally she succumbed to it. And she insisted she’s going to be buried in an Obama t-shirt".

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  15. right now there is a discussion going on in the House on C-Span, too bad those on the right have a preconceived notion the bill is terrible for the people when it's just the opposite! This bill IS GOOD and will benefit all Americans for the better. Please do yourselves a favor and watch the discussion. Our Representatives are explaining it in simple terms easy for us to understand.

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  16. I just can't, just cannot get into this conversation one more time. I will just put out that the American Nurses Association, made of people who know the health care industry better than any layperson will ever know, and who see the daily results of the lack of healthcare access and affordability, are one hundred percent behind this bill. Additionally, the AMA also supports it.

    It's people who don't know wtf they're talking about, who claim this is some kind of EEEEEEVIL socialist communist plot to ration healthcare (or whatever the paranoid de jour is). It's these people who really just don't understand that the appalling lack of access to healthcare in this country is destroying it from the bottom up. And it's these people who really could care less about anyone besides themselves, and I hope sincerely for those people that they never find themselves in a situation where they have to choose between their health and their home.

    I had to laugh today when they said McDonalds is going to offer any size soda this summer for a buck.

    By me, they already do this with tea.

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  17. too late. A whiny Republican Rep. from Texas is now talking...

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  18. Ah, Pam...

    I contaced your Representative and Senate member and told them both how much you REALLY wanted healthcare reform....

    Then I sent them a check and told them that if they supported healthcare reform there would be alot more checks just like this one...

    BPB always give me shit for not voting....what he doesn't realize that I realized that standing in line was such a waste...

    If you want your congress critter to represent your interests then you gotta send them a check!

    Socialism...just one check at a time!

    I am really glad that the Supreme Court allows my companies to exercise their freedom of speech...

    That pretty much gives me unlimited amounts of checks to write....but as an individual you are so limited!

    Thanks for your healthcare vote Pam! :)

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  19. Pam,

    Its not the real RIR or the fake RIR....its the new RIR and the old RIR..

    See, the old RIR found God and had a rebirth....she now sees the light and has changed her ways...

    The Old RIR was the fake RIR...who has now found her true calling....to give love to everyone....

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  20. "disrupt the town hall health care meetings where a serious discussion among Americans could have taken place"

    It would have never taken place. These were intended to be tightly-controlled publicity stunts. "Dog and pony" shows.

    The bill is more than "imperfect". It has some pretty outrageous flaws. Such as the one that forces individuals to buy insurance they don't need or want. Or the one to force medical equipment makers to charge 10% more for equipment.

    -----------

    Tao said: "I am really glad that the Supreme Court allows my companies to exercise their freedom of speech."

    It's not the court, really. It's the Bill of Rights.

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  21. Tao" BPB always give me shit for not voting....what he doesn't realize that I realized that standing in line was such a waste...

    That's your mouth running. Better get a monkey wrench.

    If you really want to believe that voting doesn't matter, go ahead. I would if my side were sooooo unpopular.

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  22. Right American: Pelosi saying “we will do what is necessary to pass a health care bill” is very revealing. IF this bill was GOOD then our Officials would be fighting over the pen to sign it. IF this bill was what America and her people NEEDED our Officials wouldn’t need BRIBED or told to sign it even if it meant they would lose their seat come election time. A GOOD bill doesn’t require coercion, intimidation, changing the rules or “deeming”. They would be tripping over one another to be the first signatories.

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  23. Right is Right said: What I would like to know is how can anyone at this late hour be undecided. Or are they still holding out for a better bribe!

    Good question. I’m hoping they are doing what my Rep, Altmire, is doing, and listening to constituents. However I have serious misgivings of Washington’s ethics so I’d wager it’s the later.

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  24. Tom: I do believe I wrote: “…regardless of whether it’s all been done before, it’s the status quo, or it’s what has to be done to get the bill passed.” Which would mean that I’m NOT “naïve” at all, however, I AM entitled to my personal opinion that such tactics should NOT be used whether they’ve been used for twenty years or one thousand two-hundred and twenty years!

    Oh, please stop with the Republicans are all liars spiel. The Democrats have been just as bad. There isn’t a politician on the Hill that I would trust with my dog. If we are going to have a debate, then let’s at least be HONEST, shall we? These politicians are a bunch of crooked, lying cheats who will stop at nothing to get what THEY want and to hell with the American people—and THAT goes for Democrats AND Republicans. They will exploit children, old ladies, even their own mothers, if it means giving them and their party MORE power. I’ve been preaching about the lack of personal ethics for a while now, so I do believe I’m quite consistent—the Hill is filled with morally bankrupt politicians.

    The polls may show that the majority of Americans want health care reform, I do too, but the polls don’t show that the majority of Americans want THIS crappy bill therefore it’s imperative that our Representatives listen to their constituents. And I never said that the ONLY duty of our Representatives was to listen to their constituents. I said it was A duty. You are 100% correct that they are SUPPOSED to honor and uphold the Constitution. I’m curious though, when are they going to start doing that?

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  25. Tao: Thank you! The more calls the better as far as I’m concerned.


    And thank you for the clarification on RIR. I’ll bet she’s glad to be called “new” rather than “old” and “real” rather than “fake”! :)

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  26. Yet your whole post was presented as a Democratic despicable act, you never mentioned the despicable acts of Republican to intentionally divert from a decent public debate about the bill, to unfounded attacks on the President as being a socialist, or a tyrant, or other irrational oratory, that had nothing to do with the bill.
    Your reply to me seems bipartisan. Your post was not, and lays blame on Democrats without revealing the blame of the Republicans. Unfairly and falsely one sided.
    Since the Republicans would not allow a fair debate, it's also fair that Americans disregard what Republicans have said about the bill as they decide on the bill.
    During the election, 75% of Americans agreed that something had to be done to reform health care and health insurance. Being honest, the Democrats made it their priority, the Republicans were demagogues on the issue. Which was more honest to Americans.
    No bill is perfect and it's no surprise that Americans do not like parts of the bill, but Republicans offered nothing for reform, and have not for decades when they had majority, or the White House.

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  27. "but Republicans offered nothing for reform"

    Which is simply not true, and even the quickest, smallest amount of research comes up with alternative plans from the Republicans.

    Plans that don't force individuals and families to join insurance plans they don't want or need. Plans that don't force large number of workers to become union members with dues going to the Democratic Party against their will. Plans that don't force sectors of health insurance industry to raise prices. Plans that actually address the problem of costly frivolous lawsuits instead of ignoring the problem.

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  28. Dmarks,

    If these healthcare debates were such controlled dog and pony shows then why were the protesters there in the first place?

    There would not have been protesters period.

    What is or is not in this bill has nothing to do with if this bill is any good....it could be a great bill and that wouldn't matter...conservatives won't like it and liberals won't like it...

    Its not the facts that matter but rather ones political party that does....

    Didn't see anyone complain about the flawed prescription drug bill getting passed...and 42 republican senators who are currently complaining that the current health care bill is flawed and will raise the deficit voted for that bill.

    BPB, voting matters....if you like the two parties.....but people love to complain that their representative doesn't represent them....

    He/She doesn't represent YOU but rather the majority interests of the people that voted for them...

    So, Obama is never going to make you happy...ah, but George Bush could do the exact same things that Obama does and you would vote for him twice...

    Its all about sides....

    That's why I don't vote but once every 20 or 30 years....they are all crooks that will say whatever it takes to get elected...

    The crap you bitch about now is not something that just started....

    Reconciliation - the last 13 times it has been used it was Republicans that used it 9 of those times. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

    Deem and Pass...again, been used by the Republicans...

    In 2001 the parlimentarian was FIRED because he told the Republicans that they could not do something a particular way...

    Now, you have everyone up in arms over the democratic strategy....hey when winning is all that matters then a party will do whatever it takes to win....

    This all started a long time ago and our current system is only a sum total of all the crap that has been pulled in the past...

    Oh, but NOW it has to stop!

    Sure, lets get right on that...

    As far as hope and change goes...lets not forget that GWB promised to restore values, integrity, and all that back to the White House....

    America...you got the political system you deserve!

    It sucks doesn't it?

    But you might want to blame your own party rather than constantly demanding from the opposition what you do not demand from your own Side.

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  29. OK, here is my apology for something that neither I nor any member of my family, or friends or anyone else that I know or knew had anything to do with. I apologize for slavery. I apologize for all the ignorant racist bullshit any of you slaves or children of slaves had to put up with. And the hardships that you have endured. So can we stop hearing about this now. I for one am sick and tired as hell hearing about these things that happen 200 years ago.
    And as long as we are on the subject why don’t we bitch about the stupid and insane things that are in our face today like Tiger Woods and Michael Jackson and Michelle Obama, David Paterson, and that Kate Gosselin will be on Dancing with the Stars, HealthCare, and even Lady GaGa’s saggy breasts. Aren’t these more important?
    It’s important to remember the real important things that effect our lives like who got thrown off of American Idol last night. And who will Obama bribe next? Enough about Slavery.

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  30. BPB, voting matters....if you like the two parties.....but people love to complain that their representative doesn't represent them....

    That's the way the democratic system works and there isn't much room for a third party which is why I suspect the Tea party will go with whomever casts a similar ideological net of ideas and beliefs...that seems to be the Republican party in its current form.

    He/She doesn't represent YOU but rather the majority interests of the people that voted for them...

    No one representative can truly represent ALL of his/her constituents every time. That's why these townhall meetings are so important and that everyone attend that wants to be part of the political process. I don't think that anyone that doesn't participate should whine (not talking about you) when they aren't represented to the fullest of their legislator's ability. It is truly our country and if enough people would stop worrying about their own insignificant lives and participate in our political system, perhaps WE could define the country and not just the few.

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  31. Great advice Pam, we have to give 'em hell. Nothing would please me more. I hope every State in this nation turns their backs on this piece of crap legislation.

    These miserable liars in Obama's administration as well as ALL of the senators that vote for this crap must be fired in November..
    The real danger to America is not just Barack Obama the problem is much deeper and far more serious.
    It's with all the citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the presidency.
    Whoever believes these cost estimates will turn out to be accurate - I have some great swampland in Florida and a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you!

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  32. It's always about himself. Forget the citizens that pay his salary. Forget about what the people want. And forget about the law and the Constitution. Obama gets what he wants legal or not. He has to look good, and be admired... . What an egomaniac.
    The importance of passing this bill is for the health of his presidency

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  33. It is beyond clear that Obama has not brought the country together. Instead of creating jobs, Obama has created a deepening divide between the American people and the government. Obama has polarized the United States in a way that no foreign enemy could. The point of no return for healthcare has long ago passed and the turmoil created by it will impact the rest of Obama's presidency, whether the bill passes or not.

    His interview on FOX showed he is not the idealistic, thoughtful Constitutional lawyer the press advertised him as....He is a crass pol prepared to do anything to get his ideologically driven agenda passed....even breaking campaign promises and being hypocritical along the way.

    If the CBO scores this monstrosity as even more expensive than previously predicted, I have no idea why any fiscally responsible democrat would consider passing this bill. The final real dollar cost of making the left feel vindicated, victorious and warm/fuzzy will be the tipping point for our nation. No one's Presidency is worth the financial well-being of our country.

    Obama is truly a narcissistic fool....To make the argument that passage is necessary for him personally is a sad argument...pathetic. I am not surprised because he was never up to the job.

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  34. Yeah, what was it obama said on the Brett Baier interview? Something about not wanting to get caught up in the procedures?

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  35. Well said BPB......and you probably didn't even have it written on the palm of your hand....

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  36. Tom: The reason my post is mostly about Democrats is because no Republicans are voting on this bill. That doesn’t mean I think Republicans are more honest than Democrats, because I don’t. Everyone knows how I feel about Washington; I don’t think I need to repeat my feelings yet again.

    Republicans have offered ideas but they weren’t accepted. Yes, the ideas were only a few pages but what were they supposed to be, 2,000 pages? The Democrats are the ones writing the bill therefore the Repubs offered their ideas in general terms so that the Dems could incorporate them into THEIR 2,000 page bill. But what did the Dems do? They shredded the ideas. The Democrats said they wanted bipartisanship. When the Repubs put their hands on the table they got them slapped with a ruler. After that happened a couple of times the Repubs stopped placing their hands on the table. The Democrats SAY they want a bipartisan bill, but what they REALLY want is THEIR bill with Republican signatures.

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  37. Sue: May I ask, why do you believe: “This bill IS GOOD and will benefit all Americans for the better.” I’m asking because I would like to hear your side.

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  38. Pamela,

    What ideas did Republicans offer, that Democrats shredded?

    What is bad about this bill?

    What are Republicans prepared to do about the problems of health care, if this bill fails?

    There is not even a public option in the bill.
    The dirty deals (corn belt, Louisiana, etc) are taken out by the fix it bill, which by the way is the only part which will be voted by reconciliation.
    There are consequences to winning majority. Again, I saw the amendments offered and voted on.
    Seems it's the Republicans who want the bill their way, or no way. Start over is their cry, Stop the bill is their cry. Not an appeal for their ideas, an appeal to simply kill the bill.

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  39. Thought I'd start from the top (if that's what you can call it) so left a message with the prez. Now I'll go to my congresspeople. Think it'll help? Man, I don't want to call Claire McCaskill. She's scary! Is Washington doing it to her or is it too much dressing on her arugula?

    Love

    Granny

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  40. I deem the Democrat Party to be the most unethical , corrupt and devious entity in our nation's history.
    They lie, they bribe, they blackmail, they usurp power and they shred the Constitution...in full view of the public and the majority of the media.
    It's going to take years to fully fumigate the White House and the halls of Congress to remove the stench.

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  41. VOTE OUT ANYONE WHO GOES ALONG WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION. No one can defend the arrogance and disregard for voters that this president has. The only way to protect America is to get rid of all these Socialists..

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  42. The only way to protect America is to get rid of all these Socialists..

    It is patently and unequivocally untrue that anything about Obama or his administration is in any way, shape, or form Socialist.

    To attempt to argue otherwise is to abandon rationality, facts, and objectivity.

    Any Socialist can (and has on national television) tell you that nothing that this administration has done or attempted to do is in any way Socialist.

    The only people who claim that Obama and/or his administration is Socialist are people who have not the first idea what Socialism is, stands for, or has accomplished in both America and the rest of the world, and who have never met a person who actually espouses Socialist ideology and thus have no idea what Socialists believe.

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  43. And as a secondary thought: in America today, 'Socialism' has become in the average person's mind little more than a pejorative term that they could not accurately (or even vaguely) explain if you offered them a million dollars to do it.

    It has become a word used to conjure fear and paranoia in post-McCarthyite American society, and the vast majority of people use it without ever knowing what they're talking about.

    The same goes for 'Communism', 'Marxism' and to a lesser degree 'Fascism'. People have been conditioned to react purely on an emotional level to these words, and they're used as tools to manipulate the general populace by instilling fear, and as a generic label for anyone who doesn't espouse conservatism and/or Republicanism. This is a very effective method but in reality all it does is create an emotional backlash at the expense of reality and real knowledge.

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  44. Durbin, Hare and Burris already know how I feel about this. I talked to them long ago.

    And if it makes BPB feel any better, I'm from Illinois. We vote plenty of times. I more than made up for TAO.


    To get deeper into this subject though, this Sunday the vote should be taken. The arguments of the right are in reality nothing but juvenile name calling. Something we all enjoy but still, nothing of substance.

    The right has basicaly said I think three things. Tort reform. Allow selling of health insurance across state lines. And cut waste. Yet, when it was announced that 500 billion in
    Medicare waste was going to be cut, the right went nuts and used it as a misleading issue to scare Seniors. The right is not for cutting anything except programs like ACORN that serve the poor and bad neighborhoods.


    When I pointed out that selling insurance across state lines would require federal rules to ensure fairness I was met with silence from most of the right because they hadn't thought of that. So they ignored it but continued to say sell across state lines because it was in their handbooks already.


    Chairman TAO and others have pointed out that lawsuits account for maybe two percent of medical costs but real savings don't matter to the right because they are against them. The right loves it's deficits and borrowing to keep them growing.

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  45. "Laurie said...
    The only way to protect America is to get rid of all these Socialists.."

    How many folks in Laurie's family are on Medicare or Social Security? Does she or anyone in her family pay taxes that go to support public schools? Fire and police departments?

    All federal taxes are collected and REDISTRIBUTED by the federal government to the various states, depending on each state's need. The wealthier blue states' taxes go, for the most part to the less wealthy red states.

    It's called REDISTRIBUTION of wealth and has been going on for years and years under Republican and Democratic administrations.

    It's easy to write something with no thought behind it, like "...get ride of all these Socialists." But the fact is, Laurie, that would mean "getting rid" of your fellow Americans and possibly your own family members.

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  46. The Kickbacks are still in the Bill. The only one that Obama said was a bad deal and removed was the Nebraska deal.

    Here are some solutions that the GOP offered: http://teresamerica.blogspot.com/2010/02/will-republicans-post-health-care.html

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  47. "When I pointed out that selling insurance across state lines would require federal rules to ensure fairness"

    Truth, I have nothing against this at all as long as these rules actually ensure fairness.

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  48. SDD: Socialism, communism, and fascism have caused far more damage than "fear" or healthy disrespect of these ideologies has caused.

    A comment that condemns McCarthy by name (what did he do? Damage the careers of few people! A mere handful) and does not mention Hitler or Mao (major socialist leaders who killed many millions of people really has no connection to history and the actual track record of socialism in practice.

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  49. Satyavati: First let me say that I’m FOR reform but I don’t believe the bills that have been offered are TRUE health care reform. I’ve read the bills, so I’m not totally ignorant. I have not called any of them “evil”, “socialist”, or “communist”, either. What I’ve said is that they are not in the best interest of our country or our people. I have said that we can do better and I believe that our Representatives are selling us short.

    To say that just because a person has insurance means that that person could care less about those who don’t is unfair. That’s like saying people who don’t suffer from chronic illnesses or disorders have no empathy for those who do. Or people who aren’t married have no clue how to make a relationship work.

    Just because someone has insurance doesn’t mean they have some malicious intent to see others go uninsured. I believe that most people want a bill that is good for America, good for her people and one that won’t bankrupt small business owners or our country or be more costly for Americans. If this bill were SO great then our Representatives would be stumbling over one another to sign it—without bribery, intimidation or coercion.


    While it’s true that the American Nurses Association is in support of Health Care Reform, they are for a public option and this bill doesn’t have one. They also said that the Senate bill gave too much to insurance companies and not enough to TRUE HEALTH CARE REFORM. They called the bill a “truly flawed bill”. So while they are in favor of REFORM, they don’t exactly believe this bill is THE mother of all bills, either. Here is my source. If you have another, I’ll be more than glad to read it.


    As far as the AMA is concerned, there are approximately 900,000 physicians in the United States and only about 250,000 are members of the AMA, of that, 100,000 are students. By saying the AMA is behind this bill 100% is like saying that 27% of doctors & medical students are behind this bill. I’d like an ACCURATE poll that shows where ALL the physicians stand on this bill. I have family members and in-law’s relatives who are in the medical profession, including RN’s, and none of them are in favor of this bill, so an ACCURATE survey would be very interesting.

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  50. Truth: Selling across State lines will require some regulations to be lifted and others to be implemented.

    Tort-reform is costly and the costs are passed on to patients via higher premiums and out of pocket expenses. The CBO estimated that tort-reform would save about $75 billion a year—is THAT something to ignore? I think not. Other analysts say that it could be as high as $150 - $300 billion a year. The CBO’s numbers reflect the savings on decreases in malpractice insurance premiums while the later takes into account reductions in the unnecessary tests that physicians order to protect themselves against frivolous lawsuits. It’s called “Defensive Medicine” and almost every Physician practices it, which is extremely costly. Read this article written by a doctor—I thought it was interesting.


    He also writes here how he won’t quit being a doctor unless it interferes with him and the quality of care he can give to his patients. I find that admirable. He is a neurologist. I have a neurologist as I suffer from chronic migraines. It’s a worthwhile read if you are interested in hearing from doctors.

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  51. Tom: Teresa has provided a link that lists the Republican’s plan and from there a link to the actual bill. Please refer to that as I’m too tired to repeat myself.

    You are correct that there should be give and take by BOTH parties therefore I am correct when I say that the powers that be in Washington are only looking out for themselves.

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  52. Did I read this at Granny's Place? or was it somewhere else...just wondering

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  53. Ref: " Right Is Right said...
    Dennis Kooksinich that dirty, slimy little worm has announced he will vote for the bill. I guess he was bought off by a ride in Air-force One. "

    Bought off would be correct...check out my blog here:

    http://normanhooben.blogspot.com/2010/03/ride-in-air-force-one-deemed.html

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  54. Repeat yourself?
    You have told me nothing.
    Weeks ago you gave me a link to the supposed Republican health care plan, it was a review of a Republican health care plan. It did not mention which plan.
    Although it did state that whatever Republican plan was being referred to would only insure 3 million people.
    Thanks for playing.

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  55. Pam: you personally might not have said the bill is (insert whatever here) but you know as well as I do that 'Socialist' (and thus, EEEVIL) has been the favourite buzzword of the general group who oppose it.

    I too would love a public option. I've been fighting to socialize medicine in this country since 1985. But I look at the situation like this: if the patient isn't breathing, everything else has to wait.

    Is this bill perfect? Is ANY bill that has EVER passed through Congress on ANY subject perfect? No. And it doesn't matter what you do to this bill, SOMEONE is going to come up with 762 reasons why it's a horrible evil socialist plan that's representative of everything that's wrong with America and a certain harbinger of the Apocalypse. You will never, ever make everyone happy. (And I don't believe there's any kind of a stunning 'majority' of people who are against it, unless you're reading a poll conducted by Fox News. Gallup yesterday had a very close split in the 40's with about 16% undecided.)

    We have to start somewhere, because we don't have time to piddle around for years to attempt to make everyone and their brother's dog happy before we actually do anything. In the meanwhile, every single day, people are going without care. People are being denied insurance. People are losing their homes and going into bankruptcy because of medical bills they cannot pay, and having to choose between rent, utilities, in some cases food, and care. This is unacceptable and unconsciable in America in 2010.

    We have to start somewhere. We have to make a start. No bill is perfect. But if we don't make a start, we aren't going to start, because frankly there is a lot of money to be lost by a lot of very powerful companies by reforming healthcare, and they're willing to spend in Washington to protect it. And they will. And those champions of American Capitalism will continue to defend the right of these companies to make stunning profits on the backs of the people by rescission, denials for preexisting conditions, outrageously high deductibles that in practice become worthless and premium hikes that defy rational thought. And meanwhile, every day, the financial burden this is placing on the populace becomes more untenable, and the numbers of those who are dead (or worse, slowly dying) from lack of care continues to grow. The futures of the children who cannot get decent access to healthcare get pissed upon. The entire country debilitates.

    Something has to be done, a start must be made. We can worry about pissy diapers and even a couple of busted ribs later on. For right now we have to stop the bleeding and get the patient breathing again.

    And Dmarks: again, a vast number of people have absolutely no idea what Socialism even stands for or represents. Very few of the countries that have taken 'Socialist' in their official titles are actually so. The only thing Socialist about Hitler was the name of his party, and Mao was a Communist.

    And McCarthyism was a rampant virus that affected surely more than a 'handful' of people. It created an atmosphere of paranoia and mistrust that lingers to this day. How many people who toss around the word 'Socialist' know who Eugene Debs are, or what he stood for, or what he did? One in a thousand? Not even.

    The overwhelming majority of people today in America who use these words use them as pejoratives that they don't really understand except to know that they're 'bad' and 'unAmerican' and 'EEEVIL'.

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  56. SDD said: "Very few of the countries that have taken 'Socialist' in their official titles are actually so. The only thing Socialist about Hitler was the name of his party, and Mao was a Communist."

    Hitler's movement was very socialist, especially that it involved the suppremacy of the State. Mao's was also (communism being a particularly hardline version of socialism).

    Countries like North Korea are far more socialist than, say, Sweden, as the state controls the means of production to a much greater (i.e. complete) extent.

    " How many people who toss around the word 'Socialist' know who Eugene Debs are, or what he stood for, or what he did? One in a thousand? Not even."

    But they know the important part: that it is best to stay away from his totalitarian ideology, which has no place in government. No matter how well intentioned. Those who know what these words mean, and know history, know that they result in extremely bad situations.

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  57. Satyavati devi dasi said...

    Pam: you personally might not have said the bill is (insert whatever here) but you know as well as I do that 'Socialist' (and thus, EEEVIL) has been the favourite buzzword of the general group who oppose it.

    I too would love a public option. I've been fighting to socialize medicine in this country since 1985.

    you sound like the same bunch that are backing Pelosi Reid and the Half Breed Muslim Communist snake that you have as a president .I don’t care if it was 99% of the people stood in front of the white house and said NO!!!!!!!!!!! the low life bast–ds would still find a way to illegally push down our throats .This would be a perfect place for one of Ovomits mid east buddies to slither in with a suicide suit on and do there job

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  58. I'm sorry Satyavati devi dasi, but I don't see it the way the you do. And yes, I do see a Socialist nation as evil. And I do see this wonderful man named Barack Obama as evil. What I find disturbing is that is that people like you who are admitted Socialist's are getting this thing rammed through Congress using procedural gimmicks and Soviet style deceit! And that is not what this country was made of. For the life of me I really do not understand how Congress can lead like this, but then again that's socialism! With Obama offering bribes and joy rides on Air Force 1 to gutless Democrats, the negotiations have taken on brothel-style proportions. Doesn't anyone at all care what is going on behind the closed doors of Capital Hill? What Eric Massa did was mere child’s play compared to what is actually happening as we speak with our elected leaders. They have stopped listening to our phone calls.
    Lets look at the facts:
    Any new bill needs to make absolutely clear that absolutely NO Abortions will be paid for with tax payer dollars. The Bill of Rights – Amendment I – states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…..” One of the ways I “freely exercise” my religion is to not kill babies, If this is true then congress can NOT pass any law forcing me to subsidize with my taxes something that violates my free exercise of my religion, which is to not kill babies.

    This a good starting point in any meaningful discussion on real health care reform. Unfortunately, Washington is not interested in the truth or reasoned debate. Unfortunately, Washington is not interested in what we the people and we the patients want. Unfortunately, Washington thinks that we the people are not capable to think for ourselves.
    Not only does Washington need a new watch, they need a class in morality, Constitutional law. Because the people we have in office now know nothing about it.

    The facts remain clear. The differences between the parties have only a little to do with health-care itself. It has little to do with abortion. It does, however, have everything to do with affordability… and America cannot afford this anymore.

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  59. Satyavati devi dasi, as you can see from response’s on this page, not to many people agree with your argument, as I don't...I simply don't buy it.
    We already have a form of socialized medicine in practice in America. Those of you that have evr been to, or been treated at a VA hospital should know what to expect when looking forward to the type of healthcare the government will provide.
    Employers are already raising premiums. They are doing it because heartless, greedy health insurance outfits are sticking it to their clients, including big companies, who need to pass on the costs from money grubbing insurers. The insurance companies are actually falling. Falling SHARPLY! Yet believing is seeing, and the belief in inevitably rising healthcare prices is so strong that the reality is ignored: many of the actual expenses are plunging in cost, at least enough to hold down overall increases to a fairly low level, yet Goldman Sachs is advising its insurer clients to jack up prices as there is so little competition in the insurance market, and the public be damned! Well my friend, that public is you and me. Or maybe, actually, since I am well insured as a retired civil servant under a program that has plenty of competition, and as you may be in a similar situation, it is our children, our parents, our friends, our neighbors, or our employees who are facing the fear of loss of insurance or sky-rocketing premiums. The REASON your cost will go up is because employers realize that under ObamaCare THEIR costs are going to go way up.

    So, the real message is that if you don’t want to see your employer raising your contribution amount, don’t support ObamaCare. Call your Congressman and tell him or her to vote NO.

    Do you know what Goldman Sachs actually said? If you did, I believe you would be with those of us that see that we have a much better shot under health care reform, even if it does not include a public option this time around.
    The Bankruptcy of America and the destruction of the best healthcare in world will be the only guarantee derived from Obamacare.
    Yes it is time to call our representatives in Congress. It's time to give them hell if they are Republicans, to tell them to stiffen their spines if they are wavering Democrats, and to thank them if they are stalwarts supporting health insurance reform now! Tell your representatives to say no to Obama

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  60. Unfortunately Americans are driven by myth, religion, and fairy stories. How an entire population could get soooo dumb is the stuff of legend. Americans think they don't need any health insurance until a crisis happens, then they rail and complain about lack of universal coverage. Unfortunately, EVERYTHING has to be by personal experience which puts those needing medical services at any given time in a minority. Sooo Americans pay lots for poor or no health care. And are dumb enough to like it that way. THAT is pathological stupidity.

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  61. Oh, Dmarks there you go again...you are SO clever!

    When you say: "But they know the important part: that it is best to stay away from his totalitarian ideology, which has no place in government. No matter how well intentioned. Those who know what these words mean, and know history, know that they result in extremely bad situations."

    Of course you are basically claiming that totalitarianism is only a threat from the LEFT because socialism is the only form of totalitarianism that you mention and we all know that the lieberals, the leftists, and the socialists are all one in the same.

    You cleverly overlook the fact that Hitler came to power because of the wishes of business and conservative interests AGAINST the rising threat of communists and socialists...

    That would make him a what? A socialist? NO! he put the socialists and communists in concentration camps when he came to power...HE WAS A FASCIST!

    Got it Dmarks? Conservatives and Republicans can be totalitarians and statists too! But THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM SOCIALISTS...it makes them FASCISTS!

    But of course you already know this and you like to call all totalitarianism SOCIALISM so that you can feel you are fighting the evils of collectivism and big government....while the whole time creating an evil collective and a huge government....gee, That's exactly what HITLER DID!

    Following your logic then that means you are Hitler!

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  62. Heh. Fascism is actually socialist. The differences are very simple. They both are an attempt to control everything including the economy, birthrates, and means of production. The only real difference is in the name. Hitler and Mussolini wanted to set themselves apart from communists attempting to take power in the governments of Italy and Germany.

    The only reason there has been a flagging of Fascism as being right wing is due to the academia controlling the message.

    Fascism = Socialism.

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  63. To further that, where did communist leader Joseph Stalin send Jews? Many were either in Gulags, but he sent some to Germany. Does that make him a Fascist?

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  64. Good point BluePitbull, I'm glad that some one tells it like it is!
    I would not expect a civil conversation to be possible from
    CHAIRMAN TAO.
    Fascism is a product of the Left, not the Right..... The truth of the matter is that the current administration is simply continuing the traditional path of the typical Dictators, the only real difference between Obama and the others is the name.

    We should have gotten worried when the beautiful liberal progressive elites told us we need to change everything!

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  65. Thanks Malcontent, thank you for that comment the history lesson is most valuable. The points you raise are true but frightening.
    Facism,Socialism,Marxism,Communism,National Sociam, Liberalism,and now Obamaism. They are all the same.
    Obama and the Democrat party has now shown its true face despotic socialism, with no regard for the rule of law or the Constitution.
    After all, he's God's gift to the world.

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  66. Hey kids-

    By golly it's fun making s**t up isn't it?

    Obama is the same as Hitler is the same as Stalin is the same as Communism is the same as Fascism is the same as Dictator is the same as Tyrant is the same as Despotic is the same as Democrat is the same as Environmentalist.

    Try it yourselves!

    See how many you can come up with!

    It's free! It's fun!

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  67. I can’t get hung up on this debate: socialism or fascism or fasco-socialism or Obamaism. None of this his is Americaism. President Reagan put it simply: “And I hope we have once again reminded people that man is not free unless government is limited.
    Whatever the label, more government equals less freedom, and there’s no question that, regardless of its name, the first feature of our new Obama nation is lots more government, with promises of plenty more to come.
    And to that person Satyavati devi dasi who said shes for it, I say then go where it is practiced, don’t bring it here with you. .. And take all that think as you do with you also..
    People like me and MILLION'S of others did not fight and die to keep this crap out of America so that Obama and you could being it here.

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  68. Arthurstone said...
    By golly it's fun making s**t up isn't it?


    Making Shit up huh!
    You sound like a typical little punk from the 60's that never put on a uniform in your puny life.
    And if you had to you'd run to Canada first!

    For uour information you little Obama loving freak. Fascism is just a form of Socialism.

    There are just some subtle differences from the “standard” International Socialist state models that we have seen from Communist States and their epigones in the West and the third world. These differences are for the most part cosmetic and merely the result of the necessities brought on by historical conditions.

    Go read the platform of the Nazi party. They did not call themselves National Socialists for nothing. I think we should take them at their word.

    Here is a link to their stated goals (I think that this list is from an early phase in their political assent).

    http://people.westminstercollege.edu/faculty/mmarkowski/H113/AH/platform.html

    In summary, Socialism, in all its forms, is one of the greatest outrages against the human race i history and the villain behind some of the greatest suffering mankind has ever had to endure .

    And don’t forget what the word Nazi was short for. National Socialism. The Nazi Party was the Nationalist Socialist Worker’s Party.
    It must be fought to the death before it's brought here.

    Now go back to your sandbox and ask your Mama if you can have a cookie with your milk.

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  69. Reading the comments from the left wing trolls on this blog is amazing. Not one world of truth. None one bit of knowledge of history. No understanding at all of our society or how the world really works. None. Just received left wing cant and propaganda.

    No wounder the country is slipping though our hands. No wonder a clown like Obama can get elected president.

    You have all been completely brain washed by your teachers and the MSM. You have literally been cheated out of reality, out of your past and out of your future.

    They are taking you country away form you and you do not even know it.

    This mess was caused by government. It was not caused by Capitalism. Government cannot fix it, it cannot fix it.

    The Democrats want to enslave, not help you.
    Nothing in the past 20 years has provided a wake up call like 10 weeks of dear leader.



    Such dictatorships are marked by the worship of a “glorious leader” (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim Il Jong, Obama) AND the taking away of freedoms.

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  70. Mongoose: My readers from the Left are regular contributors here, therefore they are NOT trolls.

    You may not agree with their politics but you may disagree with them civilly.

    Thank you.

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  71. Whew! What a bunch...having read Matt Rose's comment twice still not sure if he is pro or anti healthcare reform...

    Then in comes the rest of you with your vast knowledge of SOCIALISM...

    Why not do yourselves a favor and maybe sneak a search of "Fascism" and maybe spend a couple of minute reading a definition of the word...

    Yes, we know you hate college professors and all intellectuals because you believe they are trying to corrupt you...

    With as much money as we spend on our socialized educational system its a shame that we are producing adults who believe that THINKING is corrupting...

    An original thought is not the same as original sin....

    Go ahead, thinking only hurts the first time...

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  72. Pamela D. Hart said...
    Mongoose: My readers from the Left are regular contributors here, therefore they are NOT trolls


    Ok, Pamela D. Hart, substitute the word Dumb liberal for my word troll.

    You know My wife and I used to consider San Francisco our favorite town to visit. We loved the feeling we got walking through the city and encountering it’s citizens who, by the way, were very friendly. The last time we went back there were drunk liberal hippies in every little park where we used to sit and all of the doorways smell of urine. I guess that tells us all we need to know about environmentalists and liberals. This fellow TAO's postings are a window in to Obama's core beliefs unhidden from the teleprompter without the flowery rhetoric. He also represents the beliefs of so many of Obama's blind faith followers. That is what is so scary. Please feel free to chime in with your thoughts.

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  73. I guess that tells us all we need to know about environmentalists and liberals.

    So I guess this means that if you saw my college-graduated, professional, upper middle class self sitting on the front porch of her generously sized, landscaped home on six beautiful acres, next to my husband, sipping sweet tea and eating canapes, you'd assume we were good conservatives like you?

    What a surprised look you'd have on your face to find that we are both staunchly environmentalist and for my part, committedly Socialist (SPUSA) for twenty-five years.

    Stereotypes are so dangerous.

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  74. Facism,Socialism,Marxism,Communism,National Sociam, Liberalism,and now Obamaism. They are all the same.


    These words can only be spoken by someone who doesn't understand any of the above ideologies.

    As a Socialist, I can tell you that this administration is anything but Socialist.

    Representatives of both Socialist and Communist parties in this country (there are more than one of each) have come forth and explained in great, excruciating, reality-based fact that virtually nothing about the current administration is either Socialist or Communist.

    The people who say the administration is Socialist and/or Communist don't know what they're talking about.

    They're merely perpetuating ignorance and loading words with emotional content to the exclusion of their actual meaning.

    The people who actually espouse these ideologies can vouch for this.

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  75. Satyavati devi dasi said...
    Facism,Socialism,Marxism,Communism,National Sociam, Liberalism,and now Obamaism. They are all the same.
    These words can only be spoken by someone who doesn't understand any of the above ideologies.


    Well isn't that just like a liberal, No one understands anything except you!

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  76. Folks: as usual, it is up to me to bring sanity and reason to the discussion. Private industry will not bring health care to all Americans because not all Americans can afford it. That also means employers. The motivation is profit and not the well being of America. It is up to our representative government to bring this about. Hopefully this Sunday Congress will pass a bill that can evolve and improve each successive year. To do nothing is to tell fellow Americans they don't matter.


    This bill has almost everyone contributing to the system. We all want everyone to support "the system" at least a little bit now, don't we? freebies are for pinkos, aren't they?

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  77. TRUTH 101 said...

    Folks: as usual, it is up to me to bring sanity and reason to the discussion



    What he really means is:



    Folks: as usual, it is up to me to bring Insanity and UN-reason to the discussion. And to lie my ass off as usual!
    As I do to Rational Nation USA and to the Griper all the time.

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  78. Well isn't that just like a liberal, No one understands anything except you!

    If you want to translate a word from French to English, you'd ask a French person.

    If you want to know what Socialism is, you ask a Socialist.

    I've been a Socialist since 1985. Obama's policies and administration are in no way Socialist.

    Nor are they Communist. The Communist Party USA has been quite vocal on this.

    These accusations are only made by people who don't know what Socialism, Communism, Fascism, Marxism and so forth really are.

    They use them as pejorative, emotionally-laden words that bear no relation to objective reality.

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  79. I am an American fiscal conservative, but wasn't Margaret Thatcher the one who said that socialism works until you have to pay back the money you borrowed? That sums up the whole problem with it pretty well. Greece is a socialist country that is about to completely financially collapse unless they sell off their territory to other countries or find some other radical plan to implement. To be blunt, they are completely screwed, along with other European countries. The US has $12 trillion worth of National Debt, sure, but it is roughly matched by our GDP and about 2/3 of the debt is made up by low-risk investments from other countries.

    Sure, everyone is happy living under socialism for a while when they are getting all these government benefits and living in a false fantasy, but in the end, the majority suffers, rather than a few under capitalism. Capitalism is far from flawless, but so far, it is the most successful of any form of economics. It can correct its mistakes and has done so throughout US history; we rebounded from the Great Depression and we are recovering from the current recession. The theory is that under capitalism, you have a small amount of people who suffer, whereas under socialism, everyone does well for the time being and in the end, everyone suffers.

    Proof: In the early 1900's, when capitalists such as Carnegie and Rockefeller were making huge fortunes, the average American earnings actually rose and so did our standard of living.

    It's just like with the White House and Air force one. We all own them. Have you booked your nights in the WH or your rides on Air force 1?

    I hear the service is terrific. Oh I forgot you just "own" the bills.

    Socialism is to Communism as Pot is to Heroin. Socialism is the gateway drug that sounds like lots of fun. Next to get introduced to something even more wonderful: Communism, by then your soul is dead.

    The way I learned it (way back when) is that "socialism" usually means "democratic socialism" while "communism" means "totalitarian socialism" or "socialism under a dictatorship."

    Communism is worse than socialism because the people collectively cannot make any adjustments. It's the ruler's whim. (Good to be king!) They argue that one person can react faster, like a commander in the military. But one person doesn't have the wisdom of the many.

    However, socialism is worse than free-market democratic capitalism. People, using "spontaneous order," can adjust far better than any democratic process.

    Furthermore, human nature shows that humans need personal motivation, which socialism doesn't account for.
    If you grew up with the fear of the cold war instilled in you as I did, you'd know that USSR stands for "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics". The word "socialist" is right there in the name of the "Evil Empire", our mortal enemy for 50 years. If that isn't enough to taint the word despite any understanding of its meaning, I don't know what is

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  80. If you grew up with the fear of the cold war instilled in you as I did,

    There you have it: proof that these words have been laden down with emotional baggage instilled by fearmongering and paranoia-inducing to the point where people don't actually even know what these words stand for.

    They just know it's oh, so, so, so very bad.

    By the way, you can thank Socialist activism in the US for lots of the rights workers have today, like a safe workplace, an eight-hour day, overtime, weekends, child labour laws...

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  81. The following has been taken from a post in my blog of last week:
    Socialism means that you're going to take away my hard-earned money and give it to some lazy bum who didn't bust his ass at a crappy job to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table. Obama's health plan, as I understand it, will be socialized - whether that makes the US socialist depends more on perspective than anything else, as socialism used descriptively is a continuum. Whether or not you agree with calling the plan "socialist" is a normative matter and unsurprisingly depends mostly on your political outlook. In addition, it would be hard to be opposed to such a plan on economic grounds if it reduced spending while increasing the quality of care available to all - a position held by its supporters.You can dress it up anyway you want... you can talk about how sad it is that people don't have health care or that the government should provide free daycare for working moms or any other sort of heart string jerking example. At it's root socialism involved the government taking the capital you have traded your life away to earn and giving it to someone who hasn't earned it. You have no say in it. You don't select a charity that supports people in need and become a patron, an armed entity tells you that you must give up your personal assets or face imprisonment or ultimately death if you take resistance to it's logical conclusion.
    I have three problems with socialism.

    I

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  82. CONTINUED~
    object to it on principle, because I do not believe that wealth ought to be redistributed such that all people in society have equal portions. I think that practice would be fundamentally unfair, not only because it would transfer wealth from people who have "earned" it to those who haven't (this is really complicated by luck anyway) but also because it would mean that some human agent must set arbitrary rules governing what people can do with their property, and I see property rights as fundamental to a free and just society.

    I object to it out of practical concerns. I do not believe that the inevitable inefficiencies and administrative costs are justified by the ends. I do not believe that the redistribution would ever be fair or reach everyone equally. I do not believe that the incentives in a truly socialist society are efficient or beneficial. I do not believe that socialist programs, such as universal health care, function as well as similar programs governed by free market principles. I do not believe socialism is sustainable over the long term. And the countries that are such shining examples of socialism working out are, 1) plagued with problems of their own, 2) usually (e.g. Sweden) tiny, historically homogeneous nations entirely unlike the USA. Moreover, socialist programs compel state actors to make extremely paternalistic policies and enforce their personal morality on the society, because when you decide what to fund and eliminate other options, you end up choosing on behalf of individuals whether or not they should have abortions, end of life care, certain medicines, etc. Since I'm a strong personal autonomy groupie, this is unacceptable to me. Yes, the market can also foreclose certain options, but the market doesn't impose an arbitrary morality on people because it thinks it knows better than they do how they ought to live their lives, it just puts prices on goods and services.

    Finally, as you can probably tell, I object to socialism because I have an irrational, emotional, visceral reaction to certain of its characteristic features. Perhaps there is no real difference between the market arbitrarily foreclosing certain alternatives and a human agent deciding what choices are open to you, but I find the latter repugnant and intolerable, while the former merely saddens me. To me, when the market fucks you, it's a little like being struck by lightning. It's not fair, but it's not personal either. I'd rather be struck by lightning than electrocuted by the government, even if the result is the same. Moreover, I'm a bit of a reactionary. What can I say, my family fled communism. Sure, socialism is not communism, but it's a lot closer to it in terms of fundamental philosophical ideals and means than it is to capitalism. Big government is scary 1984 time, small government means you at least have a chance to fend for yourself, be the master of your fate, etc. I don't trust anyone who says, hey, I'm going to take away from you your ability to help yourself, and in return, I promise to help you. From my cold, dead hands, motherfucker.

    ReplyDelete
  83. you end up choosing on behalf of individuals whether or not they should have abortions, end of life care, certain medicines, etc.

    You're cool with insurance companies doing this, though, right?

    Cause that's what they do.

    They decide whether you can have certain treatments, where you can have surgery, which doctors you can see and what medications you can have.

    When you get sick and really need healthcare, they decide whether they're going to give you the insurance coverage you've been paying for, or whether they're going to rescind you because you cost them money.

    They hold the purse strings and virtually all of the control over how often you can see a doctor, what procedures you can and can't have, where you can go to have those procedures done, and what medications you may have before, during and after.

    And on top of all this, if you have employer based insurance coverage, you don't even get to choose which company to get your insurance with.

    But you're cool with this, right?

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  84. Satyavati devi dasi said...
    But you're cool with this, right?

    I don't know about anyone else, but yes, I'mvery cool with it.

    I work for my money and I'll spend it as I please, and I'm not giving one thin dime to the bums on the corner that got paid by ACORN to put Obama in office.
    Screw them all and the horse they rode in on.

    I've put up with a lot this past year from my disgusting government and I'll do whatever I have to to get him out as soon as possible.

    ReplyDelete
  85. A very sane and reasoned argument you make Caring Guy. "Screw them all and government is disgusting."

    You have a future my friend. Good luck.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Obama is a Socialist…He’s still campaigning, NOT leading. Wonder if he talks to his wife, family with a Telaprompter! Sad. Do you really think a man who has never served in uniform has a clue about Military life???
    He has done more in one year to ruin this country than any other president did throughout their entire term in office.

    Get real, people!

    ReplyDelete
  87. Obama is a Socialist

    Only non-Socialists believe this.

    Actual, for-real Socialists don't.

    Who do you think knows better?

    ReplyDelete
  88. I don't know about anyone else, but yes, I'mvery cool with it.

    So basically, you're willing to pay a company that you weren't able to choose for yourself to completely control every aspect of your healthcare, to ration services, to decide which doctors and which hospitals you may use, how many visits you may have for particular conditions in a given year, what medications you can and cannot have and who are free to deny you the coverage you've paid for at the very time you need it most.

    And of course, if the company doesn't rescind or deny you, you still have to worry about losing your job and having no healthcare at all.

    You're cool with that.

    Allrighty then. You might want to check with that insurance company about what kind of psychiatric coverage they're letting you have.

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  89. Satyavati devi dasi said...

    Obama is a Socialist

    Only non-Socialists believe this.
    Actual, for-real Socialists don't.
    Who do you think knows better?



    OH, It's no question that YOU know better, you always do...

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  90. OH, It's no question that YOU know better, you always do...

    I AM A SOCIALIST.

    DO YOU ASK A MECHANIC TO FILE YOUR TAXES? NO, YOU ASK AN ACCOUNTANT, BECAUSE ACCOUNTANTS KNOW ABOUT TAXES.

    SOCIALISTS KNOW WHAT SOCIALISM IS BECAUSE IT IS THEIR POLITICAL IDEOLOGY.

    IS THIS REALLY THAT HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND OR ARE YOU JUST STUBBORNLY IRRATIONAL?

    caps intentional.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Remember Republican HypocrisyMarch 19, 2010 at 7:21 PM

    Palm Sunday reminds the country when Republicans stepped into the private medical decisions of a family. The Terri Schiavo family. But Republicans want government out of people's lives!

    ReplyDelete
  92. When a husband wants to murder his wife all for the money, yes, its apprpriate for political officials to try and stop a tragedy.

    Obamacare is going to cause more harm than good. It will make our current health issues look like a walk in the park.

    ReplyDelete
  93. The Obama administration has taken over several private agencies/corporations and made them government entities so, yes, Obama is a socialist.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Remember Republican HypocrisyMarch 19, 2010 at 8:30 PM

    Of course that's not at all what the case was about, but I was wondering what a Republican party hack like yourself would lie about.
    I suppose you think it's ok for the Republican Congress to intercede in a State criminal case.
    It was a guardian case, which the Republican Congress also had no business sticking their nose into.
    Keep our government out of our lives! Sure, hypocrites.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Nope. I am not a partisan hack. I just am a compassionate conservative standing for all life, unlike you, who wants to dispose of vulnerable, innocent human beings on the bases of their usefulness in our society.

    ReplyDelete
  96. The Obama administration has taken over several private agencies/corporations and made them government entities so, yes, Obama is a socialist.

    ..no.. not a single thing the Obama administration has done has been Socialist.

    I can assure you that if he was a Socialist, we'd be out of Afghanistan, out of Iraq, we'd already have healthcare revamped into nothing but a single payer universal system, no woman would have to worry about people telling her what she could and could not do with her body and same-sex marriage would no longer be debatable because it'd be a reality.

    You all think Obama's so Socialist. A Socialist will tell you he's a right-winger.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Remember Republican HypocrisyMarch 19, 2010 at 9:28 PM

    That question duck didn't even have any intelligence behind it.

    Your lie,
    "When a husband wants to murder his wife all for the money"
    Your second lie,
    "who wants to dispose of vulnerable, innocent human beings on the bases of their usefulness in our society"

    You have no idea what my stand is, and you prove yourself an idiot to ASSume.

    So now you have lied about the Schiavo case, lied about my stand on life, you think it's ok for the Republican Congress to interfere with State police and courts; wow your just full of conservative contradictions and lies. Thanks for representing what Republicans stand for, dishonesty and deceit. Time to send in someone smarter to finish the debate.

    ReplyDelete
  98. You have just proven how heartless and hateful liberals are, especially when the facts don't support your arguments.

    She was not in a vegetative state. You libs just like promoting the killing of the vulnerable via both abortion and euthanasia.

    Health care is a good, a service, and every person has an option to go into the emergency room to get treated if they need to.

    Yes, there needs to be reform, but not a health care revolution causing the ruination of this great country, like Obama and liberals are promoting. Obama and Dems are thrusting tyranny upon us.

    ReplyDelete
  99. every person has an option to go into the emergency room to get treated if they need to.

    Only if it's a public hospital. A private hospital can and will turn you away for lack of ability to pay.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Whoa there THeresa. Teri Shiavo was on Medicid. That means it was government health insurance. How can you be against health insurance for all if you're so compassionatte about poor Ms. Shiavo? You make no sense at all. As George Bush said, "you're either with us or against us." Are you for or against health insurance for all Theresa? Any of you?




    Sorry about the rant pamela but here is a fundamental problem I have with the right and that includes even the sane ones like yourself. There is no consistentcy in your beliefs or ideals. You don't want government run health care, but try and cut Medicare and listen to every republican on earth scream bloody murder. You rail against government health care but demand people like Ms. Shiavo be kept on government health care because it would be inhumane to remove her.


    The right will demand Judeo/Christian values be taught in schools. They will demand the words "One Nation, under God" be in the Pledge of Allegiance. Then they will complain about tax dollars bussing kids to parochial schools.


    I offered to help, per my latest post at my site because frankly, the right as it stands today is incapable of new and independent thought. Unless a righty reply includes accusations of socialism it's considered a failure by the right wing thought police and the offender is pilloried and right leaning followers are ordered to stop following.


    Let me help you people.

    ReplyDelete
  101. She was not in a vegetative state.

    Unless you hold a medical degree and a fellowship in neurology, and were present to review the chart and make a thorough, personal, first-hand assessment, you have no basis for this statement.

    All you have is what you heard from someone else.

    Ultimately the lesson to be learned from the Terri Schiavo case is that every person should exercise their right to self-determination and establish a living will that outlines on paper what their wishes are in cases like this.

    A living will would have prevented this entire sorry and pitiful situation that was exploited to become a political lightning rod for the benefit of various persons.

    Terri Schiavo is dead. Not anyone can bring her back. Take the lesson and learn it. Make a living will, ensure your wishes are known, and go from there.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Satyavati,
    I do agree with you that one lesson should be learned from that whole tragic situation-That everyone should make a living will.

    ReplyDelete
  103. You libs just like promoting the killing of the vulnerable via both abortion and euthanasia.

    I take some serious offense to this statement.

    I work with the developmentally disabled. Many of them are blind as well as deaf. Virtually all of them are unable to walk, a large proportion of them require to be fed by tube and fully 90% have profound mental retardation with an IQ of less than 20.

    If these people are not vulnerable I don't know who is. My job is to make sure they get the best care possible, even though they aren't able to see me, hear me, reach out to touch me in many cases or even understand what it is I'm doing for them. And many of them have been living at the facility where I work for the past 50 years.

    So yes, I do take offense at your statement, most sincerely and very thoroughly.

    ReplyDelete
  104. You may advocate for those vulnerable that are able to speak for themselves but if you advocate for either abortion or euthanasia then you do promote the killing of the most vulnerable innocents.

    Sometimes the TRUTH hurts. So, if its offensive maybe you should rethink your stance on the most vulnerable in life.

    ReplyDelete
  105. I have been calling, sending faxes, emails and snail mail to my Representatives and Senators and I have signed petition after petition since this whole government health care garbage started. It is now my opinion that they are going to do what they want and the hell with the people.

    I have also done the same thing concerning illegal immigration.

    I am at the point where I now believe that the only way they will listen is if we resort to violence.

    Why is it that the left will not hesitate to resort to violent protests and they always get what they want, but those on the right always want to compromise with the left and we always end up losing in the end?

    When will we learn?

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  106. Right is Right, I could be wrong, but I believe that if the "Deem and Pass" fails, and everything else fails to get the health care passed,Obama will make it law by signing an Executive Order.

    He despise the Constitution and everything he dose or says, shows it.

    He and Pelosi, along with others on the left, have also made it known that once it is signed into law, that will ONLY be the beginning because they plan to build on it, one legislative piece at a time until the government is in complete control of health care.

    Just think, they are going to use the IRS to enforce the government mandate that all Americans purchase health insurance.

    ReplyDelete
  107. You may advocate for those vulnerable that are able to speak for themselves

    Obviously you've never been anyone with profound mental retardation, or 'speaking for themselves' wouldn't have appeared in this sentence.

    You don't know my stance on either euthanasia or abortion. What I find offensive is the following generalization:

    You libs just like promoting the killing of the vulnerable via both abortion and euthanasia.

    and this part:

    dispose of vulnerable, innocent human beings on the bases of their usefulness in our society.

    Let me reiterate for you: blind, deaf, unable to walk, mechanically fed, with profound mental retardation.

    You found it very easy to make generalizations about liberals, accusing all liberals of being willing to kill those who are vulnerable and who aren't 'useful to society'.

    That generalization offends me, because I am far more liberal than probably 90% of the general American public and what I do is take care of people who are vulnerable, unable not only to speak for themselves but unable to even understand what is happening to and around them, and who will never function as any normal part of society in any way.

    You don't know my stance on either abortion or euthanasia, but you found it very easy to assume, to generalize and to demonize.. you found it easy to assume that because someone is liberal they automatically do such things.

    This is an offensive untruth.

    And when it was pointed out to you, rather than acknowledge and/or apologize, you still tried to shift it back onto me. Perhaps YOU might want to rethink your stance on stereotypes and making value judgements without complete information.

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  108. Why is it that the left will not hesitate to resort to violent protests and they always get what they want

    You think really?

    Always get what we want?

    Like getting the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan?

    Like fully socialized medicine?

    Like women having the right to control what medical procedures she may or may not have?

    Like everyone being able to love and to marry whomever they wish without impediment?

    Like true equal rights for all?

    ReplyDelete
  109. One of the ways I “freely exercise” my religion is to not kill babies, If this is true then congress can NOT pass any law forcing me to subsidize with my taxes something that violates my free exercise of my religion, which is to not kill babies.

    One of the ways I "freely exercise" my religion is to not kill animals. Why hasn't Congress passed laws banning my tax dollars from supporting the USDA, which performs inspections of slaughterhouses, which violate the free exercise of my religion, which is not to kill animals?

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  110. Satyavati devi dasi said...
    OH, It's no question that YOU know better, you always do...
    I AM A SOCIALIST. DO YOU ASK A MECHANIC TO FILE YOUR TAXES? NO, YOU ASK AN ACCOUNTANT, BECAUSE ACCOUNTANTS KNOW ABOUT TAXES. SOCIALISTS KNOW WHAT SOCIALISM IS BECAUSE IT IS THEIR POLITICAL IDEOLOGY.
    IS THIS REALLY THAT HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND OR ARE YOU JUST STUBBORNLY IRRATIONAL?

    caps intentional.
    ----------------------------------

    WELL I HAVE TWO WORDS FOR YOU AND ALL OTHER SOCIALISTS!
    CAPS AND BOLD INTENTIONAL.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Pamela D. Hart said...
    Satyavati: First let me say that I’m FOR reform but I don’t believe the bills that have been offered are TRUE health care reform. I’ve read the bills, so I’m not totally ignorant. I have not called any of them “evil”, “socialist”, or “communist”, either.
    ================================
    Pure and simply put Pam, why not call a spade a spade, why do we have to be so nice and afraid to offend those who want to tear down the country we love so much? Who the hell are they that we have to change the country we grew up in and loved all these years and who the hell are they to dictate our policies and trample all over our Constitution that so many of us have fought for and died for!!!!!
    “LET NO MAN BREAK THE LAWS OF THE LAND”
    If they were so interested in the laws of our land, then why has Obama held his meetings behind closed doors and what is he trying so damn hard to pass a bill by arm twisting and bribery? And why does the majority of the people disagree with his tactics? And why won’t Pelosi show the people whats in that bill? The Constitution of our country was formed by the Fathers of Liberty, and it is not his to break!
    Obama is and always has been a pathological liar, I know that and you know that and everyone else with half a brain knows it. He is by far the worst thing that's ever happened to this country. I don't know if what he's doing to destroy the US economy is on purpose or not, but I truly believe that it is. I also believe that he is being led down this path by others with greater power and influence. I do believe that George Soros is one of them. This has always been the agenda of George Soros . And I feel that Obama was put into place by him to act as his puppet. At first it was Hillary’s job but when Soros saw she didn’t have what it took to fit in his plan he dumped her like a hotcake and switched to Obama. Soros is and always has been a proponent of diminishing the United States. This is nothing new.
    So I respectfully ask you again Pamela, who the hell are these Socialists to dictate our policies and our Constitution, and why are some of us afraid to contradict them? Commenting in blogs alone wont save a failed economic policy and a country that has lost it’s will to survive. We all have to grow a pair and answer those who mean to harm us. Maybe people like Satyavati doesn’t meant to harm us in the way that our enemies, but her belief in Socialism will just the same. I am not ready to lose my freedoms, not one of them. And I am not ready to surrender my American beliefs to ANY Socialist, not her not Obama and not to a PIG like George Soros!
    And you can put this in Caps and Bold it Satyavati devi dasi .
    These Socialist people are not going to speak on my behalf. What has Obama accomplished in his life that gives him a right to speak on our behalf, other than being elected President through a taxpayer funded criminal campaign backed by ACORN.
    Whether or not you believe that Obama was elected with ACORN's involvement or not. Certainly part of that is factual.
    You'll witness daily how quickly Obama is pushing his agenda onto Congress, desperately pushing his ideals and trying to make it appear that his initiatives need to be passed immediately, "for the best interest of the country". This nation's is going to fall economically, politically, socially, and Internationally, if we allow the passage of these Cap and Trade and Health Care Reform bills! And who really knows whats coming our way next.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Continued:

    Well, I for one don’t want to find out. I want him and his band of crooked cronies out.
    Us Americans have VOLUNTARILY gone all over the world and millions of us have spilled blood on battlefields with names that we can’t even pronounce and we have fought on foreign mud soaked soil to help provide freedom and democracy to peoples who seek liberty and opportunity found nowhere else in the world. And to save them from tyranny and unjust cruelty and even certain death. While Obama runs around the world apologizing for us and bowing down to dictators, and dinning on Lobster and eating Russian Caviar. And at the same time converting this great land to Socialism? No sir, this is not a President that I am proud of, and like Rush Limbaugh I too DO want his policies to fail. Rush remembers what it used to be like to be an American during the Reagan Administration, and he's not afraid to be honest about what he wants for this country as I do...

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  113. You haven't refuted my statement about the Left targeting the most vulnerable in our society. You haven't stated whether or not you are against abortion or not. You haven't stated whether you are for euthanasia or not, so until you state that you are agiainst both then I have nothing to apologize for.

    You have made so many generalizations about the Right so don't even go there and act like you aren't complicit in doing the very thing your accusing me of doing. There is one main difference: My generalization about the Left is TRUE and your stateements/generalizations about the Right are false.

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  114. When will you admit your hypocrisy on national health insurance Theresa and my other right leaning friends? You're for it and against it. It is typical of the right. They want socialism when it serves their purposes. Greed and selfishness are your motivating principles. Blind loyalty to your elites who send the messages you parrot through Rush and Glenn Beck.

    You people need help. I offered. Looks so far like the right wants to continue down it's path of hypocrisy and mindless name calling rants.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Socialism just does not work, at least not the way that we Americans want it to work. Socialist countries just don’t last. Throughout all of history the people in socialist countries have not been happy, and that’s why we see them doing whatever it takes to get here.
    The constitution was written because we were tired of jerk rulers controlling our lives. In a country that is socialist, and this is the primary reason for the failure of other socialist countries most people lose the motivation to work hard and get a lot done. Do we ever see anyone risking their lives to get to Cuba?
    Now let’s stop thinking about the ugly, and instead focus on America being free from this tyranny. Here in the great U. S. of A, we are essentially free to do whatever we want. We can bear arms, we can speak out about what we want (which is what is allowing me to give this speech), we can run for any office we want as long as we meet the requirements, we can worship any or no God if we so choose, we can publish what we want, and we can serve in the military, among many others. Most countries would put you in the dungeon for any of the above. Or you can grow up in china and be forced to be in the military.
    So if you don’t like the American way, and if you want “Hope and Change”. There is a boat leaving every day, may I suggest any of the following places you can go to.
    1. Democratic Republic of Afghanistan
    2. Socialist People's Republic of Albania
    3. People's Republic of Angolia
    4. People's Republic of Benin
    5. People's Republic of Bulgaria
    6. Chinese Soviet Republic
    7. People's Republic of the Congo
    8. Czechoslovak Socialist Republic
    9. People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia
    10. Finnish Democratic Republic
    11. German Democratic Republic
    12. Political Committee of National Liberation
    13. People's Revolutionary Government of Grenada
    14. People's Republic of Hungary
    15. Hungarian Soviet Republic
    16. Democratic Kampuchea
    17. People's Republic of Kampuchea
    18. Mongolian People's Republic
    19. People's Republic of Mozambique
    20. People's Republic of Poland
    21. People's Republic of Romania
    22. Somali Democratic Republic
    23. Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
    24. Tuvan People's Republic
    25. Kenya
    26. People's Democratic Republic of Yemen
    27. Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
    Or Better yet! The Peoples Republic of China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea. North Vietnam..

    As for you Truth101, I’m so friggen tired of YOU telling everyone else that they “Need Help” Look in thy own mirror! You are the mindless demented fool! Not everyone else

    ReplyDelete
  116. I am for health insurance when the companies actually live up to there end of the bargain and pays for medical procedures and visits accordingly.

    But, when insurance companies deny the person for pre-existing conditions, or won't cover a procedure or doctor visit when they were necessary, that is unacceptable. We need to lower insurance deductibles and health care costs. There is no way that a hospital should charge a person $20 for an aspirin. That is absurd. Yes, the insurance companies need to be reigned in but the government's social programs have needed reforms for over 40 years and nothing has been done to fix them. And, when Republicans have tried or attempted to fix the problems the Democrats cry fowl like reforming the programs- making medicare, medicaid, welfare- and making them better is wrong. These programs are close to bankruptcy now due to the Democrats not allowing for reforms of those aforementioned programs.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Excellent post malcontent, Let's put it this way, If Obama wanted to destroy America, what would he be doing different?

    ReplyDelete
  118. TRUTH 101 said...You people need help. I offered. Looks so far like the right wants to continue down it's path of hypocrisy and mindless name calling rants.

    Don't act so sanctimonious, Truth. Again, we see why people of different ideologies cannot come together and have a decent conversation.

    Don't try to lump Teresa and Matt Rose or Mal in with the others. I have seen them try to convey their points only to be met with sarcasm and derision.

    And stop trying to make people shrink by accusing them of listening to Limbaugh or Beck. Those broadcasters scare the hell out of you, and they should. They make your message and your party message naked as the day you were born for all to see.

    You can't lump everyone together whether you like it, or not.

    For those alleged conservatives that are screaming and name calling, go take a cold shower or something. The one's I mentioned above don't fall into that category.

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  119. Wow Satyavati devi dasi, you have a weak argument for a socialist liberal. If you love socialism so much why don't you just move to china instead of trying to ruin it for the rest of us here in Great United States of America. And as for the change, why would you want to do something as stupid as changing the style of government we have. America is the NUMBER ONE superpower and the only country that actually has a steady and civilized change of command. I, for one, don't want to see you or other dim witted people like yourself change everything our forefathers stood for and that America has worked so hard to achieve just because you want big government to take care of you. That just classifies you as a lazy bum wanting other people to work their butts off so that you can get money from the government like some sort of human leech. And please don’t tell me about your being a “hard working nurse” I don’t give a rats ass about what you do. Just don’t bring your filthy Socialist dream here. That type of government just defeats the purpose of being determined and working for yourself. If everyone makes the same amount of money no matter how hard you work, then why would anyone want to work at all.
    If you love socialism so much, I would recommend moving to Cuba. (It's probably cheaper to go there than China.)
    It is because we have developed a system that works and will continue to work no matter who is in office and tries to change it. The reason why it will not change is because we have developed the best government system on the face of the Earth. If the President tries to do something that is not right, there are checks and balances that will correct it. Or at least we did before Obama came here from his God forsaken who knows where! But because of Obama's policies, he has linked himself to socialism, Congress seem's to be with him all the way, as well as the judicial system. All three are there to provide checks and balances to each other, but when all three are working together toward the same goal, such as socialism or as some put it social justice, then there is no more checks and balances.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Arthur said: "Obama is the same as Hitler is the same as Stalin is the same as Communism is the same as Fascism is the same as Dictator is the same as Tyrant is the same as Despotic is the same as Democrat is the same as Environmentalist."


    I don't know where you got that idea, but you need to remove some words to make it OK. Get Obama and Democrats out of it, and you have socialism, communism, fascism, tyranny, and despotism being pretty much the same thing with only the most subtle differences.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Matt said: "Socialism just does not work"

    It does work if your goal is to maximize the power of ruling elites. It has a great proven track record on this.

    ReplyDelete
  122. SDD said: "Like true equal rights for all?"

    It's actually the Left, especially the hard Left, that opposes equal rights. Some hard left protesters have sworn to fight equal rights measures "by any means necessary".
    The left which tends to strongly favor explicitly racist policies such as the state universities of Michigan denying admissions of people for having the wrong skin color.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Dmarks said:

    It's actually the RIGHT, especially the hard RIGHT, that opposes equal rights. Some hard RIGHT protesters have sworn to fight equal rights measures "by any means necessary".
    The RIGHT which tends to strongly favor explicitly racist policies such as the state universities of ALABAMA denying admissions of people for having the wrong skin color.


    ...so what's your point dmarks...

    Looks to me like Arthur pretty well proved his point...

    Fascism is statism from the RIGHT wing point of view...

    Yes, I know its hard for you to accept but there are STATISTS and COLLECTIVISTS on THE RIGHT too...

    Franco, Pinochet, Hitler....those are all from your side of the political aisle dmarks....

    ReplyDelete
  124. The ones you mentioned BPB? Mal's screed was full of references to "socilaism" and you pal Matt Rose posted his agreement.


    And apparently you are incapable of paying attention or acknowleging that which doesn't conform to your own narrow opinion BPB or you would have noticed how I have successfully engaged many right leaning thinkers like our host Pamela. Carl Wicklander. Law and Order Teacher. Tom the Redhunter. People who to whom I have conceded arguments several times.


    On the occasions I've tried to engage you I haver been told to go away.


    Truth 101 is a creation of the reactionary right BPB and friends.

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  125. The last ditch effort to send out fake false emails to try and derail the HC bill is another in a long list of dishonest efforts to kill the bill. Republicans haven't changed their ways. Lie about WMD's and kill 4,000 American soldiers. Try to kill HC reform by lies, and continue to kill 45,000 Americans a year who cannot get HC. Republicans must really hate Americans to lie that the 40 million without insurance are just lazy unemployed bums.

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  126. Just the word of a pissed off AmericanMarch 20, 2010 at 12:48 PM

    dmarks said...

    Matt said: "Socialism just does not work"

    It does work if your goal is to maximize the power of ruling elites. It has a great proven track record on this.



    May I add that It does work if your goal is to make people into zombies.

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  127. TRUTH 101 said...

    The ones you mentioned BPB? Mal's screed was full of references to "socilaism" and you pal Matt Rose posted his agreement.

    Exactly. It is socialism. And if it's working out so well, why is the post office falling apart and why are socialist countries like Greece in such dire straits? What they said had merit, and you would have to agree with me.

    And apparently you are incapable of paying attention or acknowleging that which doesn't conform to your own narrow opinion BPB or you would have noticed how I have successfully engaged many right leaning thinkers like our host Pamela. Carl Wicklander. Law and Order Teacher. Tom the Redhunter. People who to whom I have conceded arguments several times.

    Successfully? I beg to differ. You can scoff at me all that you want, but the reason you and I don't get along is you don't like me and have played me in the past. I won't assist you any further than using you as a tool.

    On the occasions I've tried to engage you I have been told to go away.

    Exactly. You aren't a problem solver, but an instigator. Just the same as that incompetent boob in the White House.

    Truth 101 is a creation of the reactionary right BPB and friends.

    It's not my creation, Truth. But I would agree that certain so-called conservatives that you get a rubbery one from that scream at you certainly help keep you around.

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  128. Finally, I can comment here! I tried several times last night and I either could not get your site to come up at all... (white, empty page) or I could not get the comment button to open the opportunity.
    I will never understand how anyone could forget the importance of September the 11th.. . I will never understand how some are so unwilling to name our enemies and stand up to them.
    I thank god, each and every morning, for allowing me to wake up in the land of the free - because of the brave. I've had people I love killed by terrorists.. and I am awed by those who have dedicated their lives to combating that evil.
    As Malcontent, and An American that cares and several other people above have said, we're all waking up at the same time and it's an awesome feeling. we cannot be quiet - for too long you and I didn't write because we were disgusted and overwhelmed. We write these comments because we want to keep the freedoms that we were born with. We do not want Obama’s kind of “change” we do not want socialism. And to those of you who do, then go where it is currently practiced, don’t bring it here. If we don't join in our voices, the leftists will win and September the 11th will be nothing but a day of service. That day will be nothing more than a rallying cry for our enemies because we here at home will have forgotten the great horrors perpetrated that day and before. Those emotions will never leave me. May this nation never forget the lives lost - and may we NEVER allow the memory of September 11th to become known as just another "day of service" - soon to be forgotten. May we never witness Socialism here.
    Sometime ago, during the campaign, I called Obama the perfect Manchurian candidate. We need to understand that our way of life has been under communist attack. What we are seeing now is the fruit of plans of George Soros. The communist leaders were smart enough to know that they couldn't out spend or produce us, so they created a plan of subversion that had a time line. How many more commies will we find in Obama’s administration?
    We all know who's controlling Obama. The libs used to claim that Bush was controlled by Chenney... I think we all know that the same can't be said of Biden. That man is equipped with fewer wits than tsetse fly is George Soros . Where else did Obama raise $600,000,000 during his campaign? You know it wasn't all from Americans. We gotta vote out these clowns who don't love the USA...

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  129. Sorry Matt.

    'Love it or leave it' went out of vogue during the last illegal war.

    And thanks for your list of countries to avoid.

    One could make a list of Western European & any number of Latin American & Asian Social democracies as examples of how things can work very well indeed.

    In fact they work so well the US has spent the past couple of decades exporting our own brand of economic shock and awe to put them out of business.

    'Free markets' have solved all our problems here in the US of A so let's turn them loose on the rest of the planet!

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  130. Arthurstone said...

    Sorry Matt.

    'Love it or leave it' went out of vogue during the last illegal war.

    And thanks for your list of countries to avoid.


    And thank you Arthur for you UN-witty sarcasm.
    Your post was a total waste of your time writing it and my time reading it..

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  131. Arthur said: "'Love it or leave it' went out of vogue during the last illegal war."

    Probably none of the wars you were thinking of were actually illegal.

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  132. Tao said: "The RIGHT which tends to strongly favor explicitly racist policies such as the state universities of ALABAMA denying admissions of people for having the wrong skin color."

    That was pretty much Dems, the part of the left. Also, it's so long ago. Attempt to divert from the fact that the blatantly racist policies today are found with the Democrats?

    "Fascism is statism from the RIGHT wing point of view..."

    Check the definiton: "a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism"

    The socialist leaders accomplish this quite well without being right-wing.

    "Yes, I know its hard for you to accept but there are STATISTS and COLLECTIVISTS on THE RIGHT too..."

    Yes, and I strongly reject those type of fascists, along with the left-wing ones who are just like them except that they quote Marx.

    "Franco, Pinochet, Hitler....those are all from your side of the political aisle dmarks...."

    Only one of which ranks with great socialist thinkers and trendsetters like Mao, Stalin, Lenin, etc. Pinochet ranks down there with left-wing fascist dictators like Allende.

    And I consistently reject them all, and also reject nutjobs like Van Jones who admire them.

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  133. TRUTH 101 said: Sorry about the rant pamela but here is a fundamental problem I have with the right and that includes even the sane ones like yourself. There is no consistentcy in your beliefs or ideals. You don't want government run health care, but try and cut Medicare and listen to every republican on earth scream bloody murder. You rail against government health care but demand people like Ms. Shiavo be kept on government health care because it would be inhumane to remove her.


    Truth: I am VERY consistent. I NEVER demanded that Schiavo be kept alive, actually I thought the plug should’ve been pulled considering she didn’t have insurance and her family couldn’t afford to pay for it and she was in a coma/vegetative state, i.e. brain dead. The government, i.e. Medicaid/tax payers should not be responsible for that expense.
    I also walked the walk on this one.

    Six years ago my bio-mother, who was on welfare and Medicaid, went in a coma/vegetative state due to an accidental over-dose of medication. The responsibility of a decision of whether to keep her “alive” or “pull the plug” came down to my 4 siblings and me.

    We decided that all decisions would be done with “majority” votes. We monitored her for 3 months to see if there was any change in her brain. When there wasn’t, we knew she was in fact “brain dead” with no chance of recovery just like the doctors said. We then had to take a vote on whether to continue with artificial life support or pull the plug and let nature take its course. One sister wanted to keep her “alive” indefinitely. The other 4 of us [who are all Conservative by the way] felt this was wrong because she was on government assistance and we didn’t have the money to pay for it ourselves. The decision was 4/1 to “pull the plug”.

    So, I am NOT a hypocrite.

    In all honesty I think it’s “inhumane” to keep a person who is brain dead alive via machines and that is why my husband and I have living wills.

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  134. I have come to the conclusion that regardless of facts, reality, objectivity or any other truth-based, substantiated thing I can say, there are people who are going to claim that Obama is a Socialist.

    This is apparently some form of Socialism that Socialists don't know about.

    But yall just go on.. if you're enjoying yourselves, enjoy yourselves. And maybe you can check with your insurance company (if you have one) to see what kind of medication they'll allow you to have to maybe tone down those hallucinations a little.

    Oh wait.

    That'd be a preexisting condition.

    Sorry. Won't be covered.

    Better luck next time.

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  135. That just classifies you as a lazy bum wanting other people to work their butts off so that you can get money from the government like some sort of human leech.

    I work both a fulltime job and a part time job and have had AT LEAST two or three jobs (plus pickup work) for the past fifteen years.

    You must be using a definition for
    "lazy bum wanting other people to work their butts off so that you can get money from the government like some sort of human leech" that I haven't heard before.

    But then again, you're using a definition of Socialism I've never heard before either.

    At least you're consistent.

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  136. If Terri Schiavo was really in vegetative state then they wouldn't have had to dehydrate and starve her to death.
    Plus there is new evidence that suggests that she really wasn't in a vegetative state. Does a person who watches a balloon, can understand people, and follow objects qualify as a person in a vegetative state? Terri was able to watch the balloon and various objects, and was responsive to people. I call it cruel and heartless to kill a person by withholding fluids, food, and based on their "quality of life". If you go that basis, that could allow for a very dangerous slippery slope, especially when the government decides whose worthy and who isn't worthy of the cost to live. An FMRI is not reliable for determining brain activity. She even tried talking here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEdhe7xLD3E

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  137. Dmarks,

    Allende was a popularly elected President who didn't even get to finish his first term...that is not a dictator...

    Quit distorting facts...

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  138. especially when the government decides whose worthy and who isn't worthy of the cost to live.

    Of course!

    It's much better when for-profit insurance companies decide!

    That's the AMERICAN way!

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  139. Allende was a dictator who quickly worked to demolish Chilean democratic institutions after his election, to try to ensure there's be no elections there ever again. He was proud of the fact of his Soviet bloc alliance and use of troops from there to prop up his rule, and was pretty open about his plans to kill of political opponents. He's not the only dictator who got into power in a democratic election.

    Stop distorting facts.

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  140. If Terri Schiavo was really in vegetative state then they wouldn't have had to dehydrate and starve her to death.

    I'm not following your lack of logic here.

    What's being in a vegetative state got to do with hydration and nutrition status?

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  141. SDD: The problem you name becomes much worse when competing companies are replaced by a monopoly.

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  142. Dmarks: there's no competition. You know it and so do I. The current system is a for-profit blasphemy. Insurance companies have this country carved up like a rump roast. There is no competition in the insurance industry. Let's not even get into the fact that virtually every person with employer-based insurance has no choice about what insurance company they use.

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  143. What soviet bloc troops did Allende allow into Chile to subvert democracy?

    He didn't use the Chilean Army considering they were used to kill Allende and they were backed by the US government...

    This is about as good as your California CRI case being about discrimination....

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  144. There is no way that a hospital should charge a person $20 for an aspirin.

    You're right.

    Do you know why hospitals charge $20 for an aspirin?

    Because they're recouping the cost of the uninsured.

    They are trying to make up for the cost of the care (which they won't be paid for) that was given to people who have no insurance.

    To do this, they increase costs for everyone else.

    If everyone had insurance, hospitals would not be giving away millions of dollars in care every year, and wouldn't have to price everything outrageously to attempt to recoup it.

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  145. Chairman said: "This is about as good as your California CRI case being about discrimination...."

    It was all about discrimination. How can anyone deny it? The universities had racist policies, and the CRI was for equal rights.

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  146. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  147. Satyavati devi dasi said...

    That just classifies you as a lazy bum wanting other people to work their butts off so that you can get money from the government like some sort of human leech.

    I work both a fulltime job and a part time job and have had AT LEAST two or three jobs (plus pickup work) for the past fifteen years.



    Well bully for you..
    Like Matt sauid..

    And I'll repeat it my way. This is NOT a socialist nation, if YOU are so hell bent on living in one then you are free to go where ever you want to. (if they will have you) But don't go and try to change this country.. We don't need it we don't want it and we won't stand of it.
    WE don't want no stinkin socialism here!
    So don't give me or anyone else your bleeding heart stories..
    Behind closed doors, Reid and Pelosi have agreed in principle that changes to the Senate bill will be made to satisfy liberal House members — but only after the Senate bill is passed and signed into law by Obama. That's not the way it's done here.
    And it’s time for these gutless senator’s to grow a set and do something about it. I thought they were suppose to protect the nation from a “dismantling” of our foundational processes and to protect the Constitution!
    This man Obama does NOT recognize OUR United States Constitution.He has proven that time and again.
    Nationalizing health is another notch in the goal for the Marxist Progressive Pigs.
    These socialists have waited for this moment for decades and are chomping at the bit to get the job done with there manchurian candidate in office. I’m betting on this Crap Sandwich not passing, I’m doubting that too many Dems are willing to fall on the sword to advance the Obama agenda. America is a capitalistic nation: We believe in liberty and freedom, since when has it become evil to make a profit in this country, when did this war on capitalism start! And more importantly when will it end! This president should stop this social engineering and manipulating the economy, and keep our dollar and our constitution strong. NOTHING ELSE.
    Put that in bold!

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  148. Satyavati devi dasi said...
    There is no way that a hospital should charge a person $20 for an aspirin.
    Do you know why hospitals charge $20 for an aspirin?
    Because they're recouping the cost of the uninsured.



    And I agree, but we don't need to change our entire system to accomplish this!
    There are other ways to accomplish that.
    Socialized medicine is not the way.

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  149. For the first time in decades I am really scared of the person who is in the White House. He was swept into that position because of two things, he kept saying the country needed "CHANGE" and he's the first non-white. Well "change" is not always good, like going from the frying pan to the fire, and who really gives a D_ _ what color his skin is, weather or not he can help this country is what really matters. I know that past presidents have had their advisors about different areas, but what scares me is OBAMA HAS 30 SOME CZARS !!!! These Czars have executive privilage and they were not vetted by the congress, so who really knows diddle about them and what they are up to. This whole Obama government and it's agenda and czars sounds as if he is setting up a government within a government. Just take a look at the media, the major networks give very little information about things that are on other networks all the time, so it sounds as if the media is being controlled, and that is scary. This is a free nation not a socialist nation and if the citzens don't wake up and get rid of all these spend happy idiots in D.C. then God help us all. Obama wants things rushed thru because he knows that the citzens are going to get rid of all the pork shovelers in the next election and then his hands will be tied because he won't have the majority he has right now, so if you want to put an end to his "change" get out and vote in 2010. This article doesn't mean squat to me, all I know is no matter what label you hang on Obama he doesn't have America's and the citizens of America's best interest in mind. Has any other President rushed thru bills so large they didn't have time to read them, has any other President had so many czars or advisers who were not vetted by the Congress, No to both and that is wrong and bad for this country, WE THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA HAVE THE REAL POWER, VOTE THEM OUT IN 2010 !!!!!

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  150. Mal: Socialized medicine is the way if you want a monopoly, and think that "our way or the highway" is the best health care idea for the nation.

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  151. think that "our way or the highway" is the best health care idea for the nation.

    Which part of the fact that an insurance company you didn't choose for yourself is in complete control of your healthcare don't you get?

    And does the fact that the insurance company makes vast amounts of profit off you somehow make it okay for them to control you like this?

    People keep saying, oh, the government will control your healthcare.. do you truly believe you're in control of it now?

    No. Whichever insurance company your employer chose for you is in control of it.

    And whenever they feel you cease to be a source of profit for them (ie, once you actually need insurance to any degree) they will summarily and without warning drop you like you're hot, leaving you shit out of luck.

    Is it the fact that they make money doing this the part that everyone likes so much, the part that makes it okay for them to do it? How do people rationalize this train of thought?

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  152. SDD said: "Which part of the fact that an insurance company you didn't choose for yourself is in complete control of your healthcare don't you get?"

    No, I have several choices. I should have a lot more.

    Yet, some.... ahem.. argue that there should be socialist medicine. Single payer. A government monopoly.

    That would truly be "insurance company you didn't choose for yourself is in complete control of your healthcare don't you get?"

    And all of the problems you name of not having control over healthcare are made a lot worse by limitting it to a single choice.

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  153. No, I have several choices. I should have a lot more.

    Then you are one of the very lucky people who are in a very, very small minority.

    The overwhelmingly vast majority of people who are insured in this country get healthcare through their employer. The big insurance companies don't compete for individuals, they compete (if you could call it competing) for corporate accounts. They don't care about individuals. And the individual is basically relegated to whatever insurance company his employer has chosen.

    There may, possibly, be some options for someone who isn't happy with the insurance company their employer has chosen.

    They could attempt to get a private policy. Of course, these policies are unbelievably difficult to get; virtually everyone with any medical history will be disqualified. Additionally, premiums are several times higher than what someone would pay through an employer, deductibles are in the range of $5,000/year and exclusions are so extensive that in essence you will end up paying a premium and never really receiving any coverage.

    So you, Dmarks, are a very lucky person if you have options when it comes to health insurance. I cannot name another person who does.

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  154. SDD said: "The overwhelmingly vast majority of people who are insured in this country get healthcare through their employer"

    I agree that this is a problem. But we don't need to solve it by trashing the system.

    Why not instead get rid of the regulatory and tax incentives for employers to do this, so instead of health care plans they just give the employees the money as a straight wage?

    Then the employees would not be tied to one company, and could take the money and put it in any company they want. Well, any company once the regulatiry barriers to cross-state insurance companies are rmeoved.

    There. Positive solutions that solve problems by decentralizing control and increasing choice, not by concentrating power and eliminating choice.

    -----------

    There are so many obvious drawbacks to a single choice. I mean, come on. How would you like it if the only car you could buy in the whole country was a hyper-accelerative Toyota Camry?

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  155. Look, it's been proven over and over again.. There is no social run industry that can function like a privately owned company, when given the freedom to do so. Period.

    Socialists never tell the truth. And this president is proof of it. His plans to take over large portions of the economy are concrete proof. As was his so called Green adviser Van Jones, the avowed Commie? And Bill Ayres? And Rev. Wright? How much proof do we really need? One is judged by the company he keeps. Our president is really the first Comrade.
    Does it really matter what you call it--Socialism, Marxism, Communism, You can call him what you want, but the simple truth is, he is wrong for America.

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  156. dmarks-

    Allende didn't have 'Eastern bloc troops' propping up his Presidency. You've written this before and never provided any proof.

    Which is to be expected because your assertion is simply untrue.

    And he didn't murder his political opponents.

    You're thinking of Pinochet in Chile and those horrible Argentines, Honduran, Columbian and Guatemalan military officers who murdered civilians by the thousands after receiving training and support in and from the good old US of A & the School of the Americas.

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  157. Dmarks,

    Here is a link about the California CRI and the ACLU

    http://lightingthewayworldwide.org/answer_man_03.htm

    The case had nothing to do with discrimination and everything to do with freedome of speech and frivoluous lawsuits...

    EVERYBODY INVOLVED WAS WHITE!

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  158. Chairman: Ah. I wondered what you are getting at. For all I know, I might agree on the controversy you are talking about. Different CRI. Yours is one I'd never heard of. The CRI I was referring to is the Civil Rights Initiative, which forced the university system to treat students equally regardless of their skin color. And yes for this one the ACLU wrote extensively on its web site about the need to punish and reward people without any sort of due process, based on their skin color.

    ----------

    Arthur: I provided extensive links on it before. You chose to ignore them. My statements about Allende and his fascist rule are quite true.

    As for your allegations about other places, the fact that you can't spell Colombia kind of fits in with you skirting around the fact of the USSR creating numerous wars with massive casualties in Latin America in the 1950s and 1960s and even after. Wars like the one in El Selvator during the 1980s, which ended when the root cause for the war (the USSR) vanished.

    I'm not one for spelling flames, but if you are trying to speak as some sort of authority on the history of Latin American nations, learning how to spell their names is the first place to start.

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  159. cindybdss wrote: "I know that past presidents have had their advisors about different areas, but what scares me is OBAMA HAS 30 SOME CZARS !!!! These Czars have executive privilage and they were not vetted by the congress, so who really knows diddle about them and what they are up to. This whole Obama government and it's agenda and czars sounds as if he is setting up a government within a government."


    No need to be so frightened cindybdss. A simple Google search would have put your worst fears to rest had you bothered to Google and find out that George W. Bush had 46 czars.

    Source

    Were you scared then? Or are you only frightened when Democratic presidents appoint czars?

    Why do people go off the deep end of hysteria before doing simple research?

    There's no shame in being ignorant, only in staying that way.

    I'm glad I had this opporutnity to inform you that George W. Bush had 46 czars. Oh, and a number of GWBush's czars served under Mr. Obama.

    Glad to be of help.

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  160. Shaw Kenawe said...



    No need to be so frightened cindybdss. A simple Google search would have put your worst fears to rest had you bothered to Google and find out that George W. Bush had 46 czars.

    And none of them were avowed communists.

    Were you scared then? Or are you only frightened when Democratic presidents appoint czars?

    Democrat in name only.

    Why do people go off the deep end of hysteria before doing simple research?

    Because she didn't site her source? At least her normal source isn't MSNBC like yours.

    There's no shame in being ignorant, only in staying that way.

    The chant of an angry old woman who spent her life in the 60's telling people that? Please.

    I'm glad I had this opporutnity to inform you that George W. Bush had 46 czars. Oh, and a number of GWBush's czars served under Mr. Obama.

    Answered.

    Glad to be of help.

    You never are. You always play the wounded mother bird when you can't get immediate assistance.
    March 20, 2010 9:06 PM

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  161. Well, oh well, I see the same old Obamaidiots are at it again. Its so predictable .
    When the HELL are we going to put an expiration date on BLAMING BUSH? This creep of an excuse for a president has dragged this One Time GREAT Country down faster than Apollo Ono, and these Libs are still Blaming Bush!
    And another thing! I ever denied that there were czars in George Bush’s administration, but I can guarantee that Bush's Czars were not Communists OR Socialists, like the anti American CREEPS Obama has and has..
    I ask these narrow minded, socialist-loving hypocrites, exactly what is your point! What is the freaken difference what Bush did? Bush is NOT doing what Obama is doing now, today!
    Incredible! Did you read your comment before you hit the publish button?
    If his objective was to undermine and destroy the US Constitution, then I’ll admit he’s doing a very good job. .

    I not only Strongly Disapprove of BO, I detest him. I detest the way he is trying to ruin our Nation that our Founding Father's had fought to create. I detest that BO spits on the Constitution that he swore to uphold. I detest what he is doing to this country. And no matter if Obama gets the vote today or not, the fight against Obama has only just begun, the racial divide has never been greater than it is today.
    The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for yesterday, Saturday shows that 23% of the nation's voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Forty-four percent (44%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -21. That matches the lowest Approval Index rating yet recorded for this President . And I hope and pray that there will be just enough people in this who will step forward and say Nay.
    I’ll tell you one thing, if this Crap Sandwich passes, I can guarantee that next we will see immigration reform. First he's trying to ram Obamacare down America's throat and announces that he plans to follow that with an amnesty bill making illegal immigrants "legal" .
    And the flood gates of illegal’s will be opened. Followed by an amnesty bill making illegal immigrants "legal" and eligible for healthcare which we will all have to pay for, there will be a revolution. So get ready for a Shanty being build in your back yard.

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  162. I thought Malcontent was one of the righties that didn't resort to name calling. Just like Bluepitbull said.
    Then I read his latest diatribe and he calls people anti American creeps and Obamaidiots.

    What's the matter BPB? Helga demand more loyalty or else from you so you have to suck up to deluded, hateful, other than that, I'm sure kind and sweet, people like Malcontent?


    I still want you guys to have good health care that's not at the whims of your employers or HMO's friends. I sent a mass email to all Congressmen and Senators earlier this morning urging them to support this bill despite the racist and violent threats made by tea baggers and other reactionary nutjobs.


    It's Sunday. Please remember to worship in the church of your choice.

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  163. Yeah, well I also don't support the name calling on your side that goes on. If you don't like it, don't dish it out.

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  164. Let's see: BPB calls me an angry old woman, and recently came to my blog and left a comment calling me a liar [which he promptly deleted].

    This is someone who begs people here to believe he's through with bickering and name-calling on blogs, but cannot stop himself from continuing to attack me. Even on my own blog.


    BPB, your attack here isn't as vicious as it was last spring when you authored that digusting sexual post about me and invited your pals to pile on and call me any name they could think of, but I see you still need to attack a woman--either sexually or by trying to insult her because of her age.

    How very brave of you.

    Honorable men would call that conduct unbecoming. Someday you'll understand how that behavior reflects on YOU--it harms me not one iota.

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  165. Ken, just another concerned citizen.March 21, 2010 at 9:22 AM

    There are some excellent posts and comments here.
    You all are right to be pissed off. Sadly, "they" have been stealing our Republic away from us for years and are now in the final stages; thus your frustration because it is so far gone.

    It can be recovered and will be in my thinking. I think that it will take a 2nd revolution where we rise up at the polls and vote them out. Let them go kicking and screaming and crying their eyes out but let them go.
    A socialist is a socialist no matter how much you try to deny it. He surely wants to re-structure the best Country in the world.. Call him what you may but he wants some sort of Anarchy and wants to destroy this economy through his stupid Socialist looking governance...
    Then we can do the reform that stops some of this crap and enact term limits and eliminate pay for life for senators and on and on...

    Oh yeah. One last thing. Make it politically correct to talk to others about politics. How will people ever know how bad things are that don't keep up with the truth?

    Thanks for a great posts. You have spoken the frustration of the many.

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  166. Stop diluting the issue by lying about Tea Partiers being racists. They are NOT racists.
    Stop fear mongering the congressman into voting for a horrible bill that will bankrupt America. Or is that the Democrats plan-to bankrupt this country and force a dictatorship upon America?
    That would be "remaking" America, as Obama wants to do.
    Obama does like to surround himself with radicals, both friends and within his administration, and since he said to judge him by who he surrounds himself with, he is a radical. The man is a combination of a communist, socialist, Muslim sympathizing, America hating radical. He and the Dems are destroying this country from within. That is the worst kind of enemy. Yes, "remaking" America does indeed mean destroying America's freedom-loving and liberty-loving principles and values, that is the foundation of this country. So, the Democrats have just announced war upon the majority of American people and we are committed to defending her no matter what it that takes using peacefully means.

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  167. I don't think I've ever done this before but here is something I think it's important for people to see. (Thanks for the linky thing, Pam)

    Theoretical constructs and nebulous impersonalism can take a lot away from the reality of the situation. I invite you to actually take a look at reality.

    Just so that it's clear, I've decided it's best for me not to respond to any comments there. I didn't post it to start a fight or feed into anyone's delusions.. I posted it because I think people need to see it.

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  168. Hey BPB: I never said I didn't like the name calling. When done with pizzaz as I do, and several righties I asdmit, it's entertaining. That's what this is. Nobody is going to change his/her mind because you typed that I'm a socialist or I typed that you're a deluded right wing fool. Of course my words are true and your's are nonsense.

    Yours, Theresa's. Mal's and the rest of the reactionaries show how desperate your side is for rational and intelligent argument. You have nothing left but to call my side names.

    I liken your situation to similar ones I experienced with my kids when they were younger. When one of them was bad or mistake he/she would then try to deflect by saying something silly like his sister's butt stinks. That is what the right's argument against health insurance reform has become Bluepitbull. You know your side is wrong so instead of taking your medicine or embracing a good idea and moving on, you say " Your butts are smelly."

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  169. My 'side' isn't wrong. Just taking the standpoint of economic justice does not excuse the cost of this fiasco. And your ignorance shines through when 'your side' tries to do a side by side comparison of two completely different economic models. But, don't let that distract you from the goal of socializing the country further and letting the government make a larger grab at your freedom which nationalized health care does.

    But, you'll grow up some day, I assume.

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  170. Well it didn’t take too long for the “Truthless one” to chime in with his insults did it... good old “Truthless One” who rages against the big bad capitalism machine ... who hates capitalism
    more then the departed Van Jones
    When I consider being civil in tone with communists that will be the day I give up and giving up is not in my D&A.
    They only understand vile language, which I have no problem with lowering my standards to accommodate.
    You can call me anything you want to, when it comes from you, I take it as a complement. But just remember I can return insults tenfold. Anyway, I always feel embarrassed when somebody compliments me. I can’t think of anything to say in return, so I smile awkwardly and say thank you. So have your fun calling me and Bluepitbull and your Fictitious right wing friend Helga all the names and digs you can muster up, but I am a typical white, logical person who loves this country and don’t want it destroyed, as some people on your side of the fence do..
    PS, Satyavati devi dasi, I hate to let facts get in the way here but in case your lost, this is “still” America. America has stood against and defeated many a foe. She is a country that stands up against injustice, others being treated inhumanely, and will fight to protect the rights of those who cannot fight for themselves. Poets have written tributes honoring America for being the “Land of the Free”. Some of us still agree that this country is a great country. To any of those who feel otherwise. There are Boats and Airplanes leaving every day. And there are still a few Commie countries that take in American’s who are disenchanted with our Constitution, and our way of life. There hasn’t been one post that you made here where you didn’t defend and praise Socialism. Why are you even here?
    So cut the crap with the moralizing.
    Do I hate this president? Yes I do and I don't trust him one tiny bit. . Up to now, our government has just taken our money and wasted it. This president wants to alter our economy and control our health care, he apologizes for us overseas in countries where American blood has been spilled. He appoints these self admitted communist loving, MAO loving people as "czars" who REALLY don't like those of us who protest and oppose his actions.

    Why would I trust him? He promised transparency in government, then gave us the voting processes that produced the stimulus and cap-and-trade bills that were voted on behind “CLOSED” doors, and at times in the middle of the night. . He promised to be post-racial, then profiled cops in a white house press conference. He is now telling us he will expand health services to all Americans without rationing or raising taxes. Only a fool would believe him.
    You can pick any shade of PINKO you want to, to define Obama. Take your choice, pick any one. The result is the same.

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  171. She is a country that stands up against injustice, others being treated inhumanely, and will fight to protect the rights of those who cannot fight for themselves.

    Then why are American citizens losing homes, going into bankrupcy, suffering and dying every single day for lack of access to affordable healthcare, Mal?

    Who's standing up against that injustice?

    Who's protecting those being treated inhumanely?

    Who's protecting the rights of those people who can't fight for themselves because now they're too sick, too poor, too debilitated by 'the best healthcare system in the world', that they can't access because they can't afford it?

    Oh.. I'm sorry.. healthcare's not a 'right', is it?

    Guess they're out of luck. All that business about injustice and inhumanity and fighting for the helpless don't apply to them.

    You wanna tell them or shall I?

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  172. I see the same old Obamabots posters are at it again these posters are on every blogs bullshitting about the same thing over and over again. Stupid liberals are the sheeple of the world. They are really socialists. The environmental wackoff's attach to them as well.
    You Socialist loving people are brain dead. READ UP on from NON-biased socialist/liberal sources. These people are taxed to Hell and back and their citizens riot over not being assured of NOT being fired by their employers. What kind of shithole is that for you? They have ZERO progress over there. They are stagnating in their own socialist programs and big governments. Socialism fails. It is Big Brother government. Anyone with a mind knows this. Barrack Hussein Obama is a freaken socialist and I pray to God he does not get this bill passed more than anything else in my life. If he does...you will see firsthand the nightmare of socialism in work. Stop being a blind fool. Just because other countries make the mistake of using socialist programs does NOT make them good. Personally I want to pick my doctor. I also want to see a specialist in under 6-9 weeks such as the Canadians have to wait because of their system. Socialism SUCKS period. It more than sucks...it is a disastrous concept and idea. You would have us waiting in food lines and worse. No I'm not exaggerating. Once you start a thing it grows.

    And Saty whatever your name is, Do you even know what Hitler's political party's full name is? It was shortened to Nazi from Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter-Partei (National SOCIALIST German Worker's Party). Nazi's and socialists are not opposite ends of the political spectrum. they are both on the same. I'd bet Saty cried like a baby when the Berlin Wall was torn down.
    Mao would shoot people like me...who believe in individual economic freedom. We are dead weight.
    And you ain't worried about a totalitarian takeover? Think again.

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  173. Tell you what Mal and BPB. When you two see me standing on Maine St. giving back all the profits I made from stock trades. All the money I made from negotiating pay raises for me and my Union Brothers and Sisters. All the money I made doing carpentry and roofing over the years, then you two deluded fools can talk to me about communism and socialism.


    The Chairman can buy and sell all three of us. Why does it piss you guys off that successful people can also care about social injustice?

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  174. Personally I want to pick my doctor. I also want to see a specialist in under 6-9 weeks

    You are absolutely free to choose your doctor from a preapproved list of doctors they've chosen for you.

    If you'd like to choose a doctor from outside that preapproved list, it will cost you 60-80% more if it is covered at all.

    And if you'd like to see a specialist, for example a gynecologist, the earliest appointment you might be able to get with the gynecologist you've chosen (from the preapproved list of gyencologists chosen for you by your insurance company, or even one not on the list), you can be waiting anywhere from eleven to fourteen weeks for a routine appointment.

    People don't understand the concept of triage. What this means is that you get put in line according to how emergent your situation is. If you are laying up in the OR holding area waiting to have your knee replaced because arthritis has destroyed it, and someone comes in with their leg shattered in an industrial accident, you're going to wait. If a group of teenagers who have been shot to bits in gang violence then come in, you're going to lay in the holding area until their surgeries have been done. You will be summarily pushed back until every more emergent situation has been taken care of.

    People get taken care of, but the ones who *need* it first get it first.

    This is true in any system. It is the way medical care works.

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  175. Are you intentionally misunderstanding, or is it true ignorance?

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  176. Just because other countries make the mistake of using socialist programs does NOT make them good.

    You are aware that the United States ranks 37th in terms of healthcare in the world, right?

    THIRTY SIX countries provide their citizens with better healthcare than we do.

    They have lower rates of preventable death, lower rates of noscomial infection and better infant mortality rates than we do.

    The 'best healthcare system in the world' is a magnificent tagline, but if you'd like to deal in reality, it's the '37th best healthcare system in the world'.

    All the flagwaving and pseudo-patriotism you'd like to indulge in really won't change that.

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  177. Seeing is believing, unless you think it is all staged like the Moon landing.
    Yesterday C-Span aired the Rules Committee all day. You could watch the Republican amendments debated and voted on, just like last Summer. "Closed doors" is a lie.
    Yesterday, I saw teabaggers verbally attacking elected representatives of the Congress. One called a gay member a faggot, one called a black member a nigger, one spat in the face of another member. Bigotry is alive and well in the conservative movement.
    A few days before I saw a man with Parkinson's berated by a Teabagger, who told him he should get off his lazy ass and worse.
    Check out YouTube, they have all these videos on file.
    I don't like this HC bill, but I hate bigots, racists, and liars; and that's what I see on the Republican (conservative) side. And yes, they are Republicans. And yes I have heard the same garbage from Republican talk show hosts, like Rush saying Mr. Fox was faking his Parkinson's. Maybe Republicans just hate people with Parkinson's.
    It was not Obama Democrats starting physical fights and shouting matches at the Health Care Town Hall Meetings last Summer. An example of "brown shirting" if ever there was one.
    It was not Democrats wearing guns to meetings and Obama's speeches. Trailer trash manners, not to mention a real danger.
    A simple dictionary will tell you that the President is not a Socialist, or a Communist, or the other terms used to lie about him. I guess some cannot read a dictionary where you will also find the definition of bigot and racist.

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  178. All democrats should stop wearing the flag lapel pin..including Obama..they are not Americans..they are commie socialists. Like 1/2 of you people that are posting here today.

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  179. TOM do you really believe half the things that you said or are you still dreaming!
    I couldn't sleep for a large part of last night because I was seething over this bill. I came up with a lot of satisfying ways to make the dims pay for this bill, but I'd probably get banned and arrested for mentioning any of them here.
    How can you or anyone else believe anything this guy says?
    Socialists never tell the truth. Of course the president is one of them - his plans to take over large portions of the economy are concrete proof. And Van Jones, the avowed Commie? And Bill Ayres? And Rev. Wright? How much proof do you need? One is judged by the company he keeps. Our president IS really the first comrade.

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  180. Yeah, you're clearly right, Tom. Just like the anti-white hate speeches of Rev. Wright, that guy that tried to blow up the Pentagon, Bill Ayers and so on.

    I'm sure the community organizer didn't put plants in the crowd to make sure your beloved MSNBC had something to scream and froth about.

    I especially love the fact you admit that you hate.

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  181. It's very obvious to me that Tom, Saty, Truth and TAO all sound like really deluded, unrealistic, unwise, twisted thinking idealist that's dangerous. These ppl usually lie through their teeth...it's their way of life. Who knows what connections he has to the evil Obama web of lies network. Anyone who is leaning this way would want to "hide" the fact about Obama being anything close to Socialist!! Of COURSE they'd deny it,like Obama does. Obama is an "Alinksky Radical" --- he TAUGHT the manual "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinsky. They're all pretty much followers of him & are using his strategies suggested in the book. Michelle even used the same phrase you find in it. Please -- everyone --- check this out & you'll know the truth about how they think & their strategies & plans. It's clear as day!!! One site by David Horowitz (ex-radical) is really good since he used to be one & had parents that were Communists & he KNOWS. Site: ://www.frontpagemag.com/listBlogs.

    I don't trust any congressman with a D behind his/her name. At the end of the day they go "tribal". There is no such thing as a Blue Dog, Southern, Moderate they are all liberal and progressives... Obow-ma is setting a precedent whereby the Executive branch can basically do whatever it wants.

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  182. Yeah TOM...

    Quit making up what you see on television or what you read in the news...

    STOP MAKING UP REALITY!

    Just watch Fox News and they will TELL what is real and what is not...

    Its like the Wolf guy....he called us blindly led idealists who are part of some mass conspiracy to cover up Obama's true intentions...

    Then he goes on and recites word for word everything that Glenn Beck has said on his show...

    Hmm...but Fox News is not a conspiracy....

    John Yoo, a conservative Patriot basically said that the President can do whatever he wants during wartimes...

    But of course no one will discuss that because Glenn Beck hasn't told THEM what to think...

    Remember Tom...

    YOU THINK THUS YOU MUST BE A KOOL AID DRINKER!

    You must be freed from koolaid so you can become a patriotic follower....

    That is the sermon on the mount for the reactionary right....

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  183. TOM said...

    Yesterday C-Span aired the Rules Committee all day. You could watch the Republican amendments debated and voted on, just like last Summer. "Closed doors" is a lie.
    Yesterday, I saw teabaggers verbally attacking elected representatives of the Congress. One called a gay member a faggot, one called a black member a nigger, one spat in the face of another member. Bigotry is alive and well in the conservative movement.


    BIG FREAKEN deal. So one or two or ever three of these people acted like jerks.
    And that makes the whole Tea-party movement racists?
    Are the democratic protests angels?
    Get real and get a life.

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  184. To: BPB, Mal, Dark Wolf, Undanj, Namma and other common sense conservatives who actually live in reality instead of this fantasy land the Liberals live in: Don't worry these Lefties have been deluded by government programming at our "finest" public schools. They are programmed to follow the government like robots which stopped their free-thought many years ago. They like the communist way of stealing money from the "rich" who pay the majority of taxes in the U.S. and really stick it to them while the jobs keep shrinking, the economy goes to pot, and Obama and his fellow minions bring this country down to its knees and this country becomes a welfare state. These Lefties on this blog want this country to be down in the gutter like other countries around the world instead of this country actually having the capacity to rescue other countries when in need. They want everyone to be equally poor instead of having the opportunity to be wealthy.

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  185. And that's fine, Teresa. But Truth is being dishonest and doing unnecessary spinning to try and confuse people. Typically, it's name calling. When that doesn't work, he accuses people of either being greedy or hypocrites.

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  186. Huh. I never heard of Saul Alinsky. Thanks Dark Wolf. He sounds like my kind of guy.

    Question though buddy. Are you one of the Long Beach gang? The feedjit thingy isn't up now so I can't tell if there are still just the three posting as twenty or if you're a new rightie.

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  187. Teresa:

    How bout checking out the most recent pictures I put up on my blog?

    Then you can head on down to Pediatric Cardiac Intensive Care in Durham and get up in the baby's face and tell him that he's a socialist, communist, unpatriotic, America-hating dog who can just lay there and rot because he doesn't deserve the healthcare his lazy, undeserving twenty seven month old ass is getting?

    And while you're there, you can call his mama a crack whore welfare queen who shouldn't be allowed to have babies in the first place... while she tries to manage her job from cribside.

    Go on and look in his face and see what an American without medical insurance looks like.

    I hope if you have kids that you, and they, never go one day without adequate health insurance.

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  188. Poor Theresa. Even after I show her and BPB and Mal what a good money loving capitalist I am they still ignore that fact and repeat the same tired accusations of socialism.

    By the way BPB: did you get a cost of living increase in your government pension this year? I fully support making sure the promises we made to our Veterans are kept even if it means I pay more taxes to do so.

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  189. BPB,

    A decent American would speak against the kind of racist, bigoted behavior I saw.

    To bad you would not speak against that behavior, but I'm not surprised.

    By the way FOX news showed the video of those racist acts, that's where I saw them, on Wallace's talk show this morning on FOX.

    This post is about HC. What I saw was part of the HC debate.

    You want to discuss Rev. Wright, fine, write a post and I will comment about how I dislike his oratory.

    Oh, that's right, I cannot comment at your blog; because I asked a REASONABLE question about the President and you banned me from your blog (I'm not missing anything) and then attacked my blog with your vile words.

    Enjoy your delusion.

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  190. Morcapitalist stuff from Truth 101:

    I just sold my shares of Williams Pipeline Partners, wmz is the stock ticker, for $31 a share. I paid $14 share about two years ago on the advice of my town's chief rightie.

    I bought GE and Ford when they were way down also. I'm looking forward to some big profits there despite Chairman TAO telling me to stay out of the market. Actually, I agree with him that the market will undergo another correction so I will be selling everything before long except the Frontier Communications. $7.50 a share and it pays a $1 a share dividend. You won't get that return at a bank my friends. And as long as there is a need for high speed internent in rural areas FTR will be doing a good business.


    I really love that profits pay the lower capital gains tax rate. Ain't capitalism wonderful! And to think you poor right wing fools could have had Truth 101, a true capitalist, on your side.

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  191. You love throwing my government pension in there, don't you Truth?

    I got shot at for that government pension, so it's a gamble, right? Not hypocrisy. I signed a contract to serve an UNDEFINED/INDEFINITE amount of time, and was permitted to retire at 20 years. A little different model once again, than the one you are pushing.

    Tom, it really hurt your feelings that you couldn't post there, huh? Careful bud, you're starting to sound like that Time guy who went off the deep end.

    Fox News is your source? Then you have to admit that they are Fair and Balanced, right Tom? Either way, they are just another media outlet hounding for a story at the end of the day. I still say it was the community organizer's minions from SEIU, UAW, or ACORN that tried to blend in if it really happened at all.

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  192. I still say it was the community organizer's minions from SEIU, UAW, or ACORN that tried to blend in if it really happened at all.

    I think it was Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis, but I got no more proof than you do.

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  193. I fully supportyour government pension BPB. I have been on record hundreds of times for saying I would gladly pay higher taxes to make sure that and any other promises made to you and all our other Veterans are kept.

    And I would also bet that your "friends" here and elsewhere would rot in hell before they would take my side and support higher taxes to keep those promises to you BPB. In fact, I would bet that most of them would be in favor of cutting your pension rather that seeing taxes rise a few bucks.


    You need to understanf BPB, I am your friend whether you want to admit it or not. The Malcontents and Dark Wolfs are not. Wake up dude. The real enemies of those that serve and if need be defend our Nation are not on the left. They are on the right and behind you. Stabbing you in the back at every opportunity.

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  194. Fox is not fair, or balanced, neither is MSNBC. Your mistake is listening to only one side, I don't make that mistake.
    I don't know who "Time" is, and I certainly do not want to go to your blog, and I do not. I get plenty of irrational right wing opinions here at Pamela's. That's irrational opinion, not rational facts.
    Of course you still hang onto your delusions. Of course you still won't speak out against the kind of racism and bigotry shown by conservatives over this HC issue.

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  195. CHAIRMAN TAO said...
    Yeah TOM...
    Quit making up what you see on television or what you read in the news...
    STOP MAKING UP REALITY!


    CHAIRMAN TAO Can you really be as stupid as you sound? Can People Really be so Stupid? Or do they try so hard to convince us that they are?

    Can't you write a comment without the stupid sarcastic remarks?

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  196. Heck, no...I LOVE sarcasism!

    Its the greatest ancedote for absurdity!

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  197. Hey Dark Guy: I've seen almost exactly the same comment you just posted, wording and all, from other righties directed at Chairman TAO.

    Don't you have an original thought in your head? Are you as stupid as the other guy that psoted under twelve monikers that said the same thing almost verbatim? Will you have an answer at the ready thanks to the chief righty?

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  198. Satyavati,
    You make the most nonsensical statements. I did not attack any babies. I leave that up to you socialists. I care more for people(at least the ones not attacking me) than you could ever know or understand with that government conrolled mind of yours. They haven't been corrupted by you yet-an avowed socialist-, so why would I attack a baby that can't speak or who can't stand up for themselves like adults can? I have not attacked any children or babies here, unless your Leftist brains are equal to that of children's minds. Pictures and compassion doesn't display the cold hearted truth about socialism and how it hurts everyone's health. Socialism attacks everyone like an infectious disease, unlike capitalism that encourages and allows the opportunity for everyone to succeed. Your sob stories and pictures cover up the facts about reality. I never said that this country didn't need health care reforms, but you spew lies and misrepresent us compassionate conservatives when you are the ones who want to keep people reliant on the government and keep people poor instead of instilling a sense of confidence and lifting people up as conservatives do. You do want government run health care? So, you think the government can make better decisions than yourself?

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  199. Truth: I do believe I said I would gladly pay higher taxes to support our troops and I also believe I told you I support our Veterans. I said they deserve the BEST care we have--and then some. Please stop boxing me in with those who don't. I don't like being pigeon holed.

    The generalizations NEED to stop with EVERYBODY! This is ridiculous!

    Also, stop attacking people on their looks and ages. I'll be 45 and trust me without make-up I'm scary as hell.

    Let's focus on ISSUES people. Looks and age don't matter so let's behave and act like the grown ups we profess to be.

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  200. 45? Thats make you a BABE in the woods...

    I am going to start calling you "YOUNG'N"

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