Saturday, March 27, 2010

Innocent Until Proven Guilty—The American Way Gone Astray


There is no doubt that the recent violent events against political officials are despicable. I have always stood on the right side of the law, opposing those who maliciously do harm to others; vandalize; terrorize; commit fraud; or any other criminal act.

The problem, however, is that the most current detestable violent acts are being blamed on the Right without any shred of evidence. I believe that is totally unfair and completely prejudiced. There have been instances in the not too distant past where this same prejudice was displayed and proven false.

Let’s begin with James Von Brunn, the Holocaust Museum shooter. He was the 88 year old man who killed a security guard and injured another on June 10, 2009. The air and blog waves were filled with how this man was a White Supremacist and a Right-wing terrorist. However, after an investigation, we found out he hated Bush, Cheney, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, Jews, Blacks, Christians—especially Catholics, and Fox News; he didn’t think Hitler went far enough; he was a Holocaust denier and a 9/11 Truther. Hmm…none of those sound like Right-wing beliefs to me. But that didn’t stop people from blaming the Right FIRST and THEN getting the FACTS which proved the Right was NOT responsible.


A few months later on September 12, 2009, Census Bureau employee, Bill Sparkman, was found hanged to death. CBS reported that he was found naked, gagged, and his arms and legs were bound with duct tape—all of which had NOT been confirmed by the authorities. Those types of allegations went through the MSM like a brushfire which led others to claim that Michelle Bachman and Glenn Beck were responsible for Sparkman’s death. Or take the Daily Kos’ author, the Liberal Kentuckian, who wrote, “This one act seems too likely to be the worst of mine, and all Liberal Kentuckians fears: Our state is consumed by Radical Right-Wing fear and propaganda, and we are moving to[sic] far to the right.” The Liberal Kentuckian also wrote, “I know that there is no factual evidence supporting the idea that this murder was something more than just another murder, but it has all the calling marks of being something much more.” He was right, of course, there was MORE. It was called “suicide to defraud an insurance company”, as a thorough FBI investigation later determined.

But the defamation to the Right, Michelle Bachman and Glenn Beck had already been done and NOT retracted—and no apologizes were EVER issued.



Then on February 18, 2010, Joseph Stack flew a private plane into an IRS building in Austin, Texas. Mr. Stack left a suicide note which railed against the IRS, GW Bush and the Catholic Church. However, it was again the Right, namely the Tea Party, who was blamed for this ghastly act of violence which killed him, one innocent IRS employee and injured thirteen others. The Daily Kos’ author mc joan was a little more, shall we say “conservative”, with his/her accusation, writing, “Reading larger political motives into this action would be preliminary, until more information emerges about whether he actually has been involved in any political movement like the teabaggers. But it should inject a bit of caution into the anti-government flame-throwers on the right.” Ya think “reading larger political motives” is preliminary before you have any, let's say FACTS!? How about EXTREMELY PREJUDICED? Stack was against ALL government, even Bush. To say he was on the Right would be an out and out lie. The man was a friggin’ Anarchist.

ALL violence should be shunned. BOTH parties as well as all Americans need to call each perpetrator by his/her name— REPUGNANT. We need to stand by our values and convictions regardless of our political party—THAT is what good character is all about. Values, morals, integrity, grit—those must precede any political affiliation and we MUST pursue and honor them. Just as we must revere and pursue FACTS.

There is STILL such a thing in our country as “innocent until proven guilty” but so many have chosen expediency over truth. Power over justice. The foundation of our country is crumbling and it’s because far too many have chosen to forget the fundamentals.

The violence, hate-filled vitriol and incivility needs to stop if we are ever going to succeed. We need to practice patience and we also need to remember some decorum when faced with these issues. I do believe it’s called the American Way.

94 comments:

  1. We just have to be careful not to chill free speech. Too many are now labeling mere criticism as hate-filled vitriol calling for violence.

    It's incorrect to say that Obama is a Muslim, but that's not the same as calling for any sort of action at all, let alone violent action.

    It's correct to say that Obama did pal around with terrorists (Ayers), but that also is not a call to any sort of action, including violence.

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  2. Great post Pam... I'm in full agreement.

    I ask, where's the evidence that this ever happened?
    And if it did happen, who's to say it wasn't a liberal plant? Even if it was, one bad apple among thousands doesn't represent thousands of patriotic true Americans who believe in limited government and the constitution.
    How come, with all of the cell phones in everyone's pockets, how were neither of these events captured? If they were, I'm sure they'd be plastered over every internet blog and left wing news media outlet. Why do people who are on the right always get called and accused of hateful rhetoric when it is coming from both sides - from the left more so than the right. Why isn't it wrong for anyone to demean and be hateful to anyone else - not just those who have an opposing point of view. We are in danger of losing our free speech if the intimidation of those just trying to exercise their constitutional right are yelled down. Do they this on tape so they can prove it? No they don’t, but they sure know how to use it don’t they! They seem to dig up these stories and lies and they use the use of the N word all the time as well as playing every race card in the deck and that say anything to portray the tea party patriots as a fringe radical and violent nut-job group. Well I saw that group of over 9,000 at the Sarah Palin really yesterday and I dnit not see even one person that was un-orderly. Not even one.
    And by the way! Didn’t Jesse Jackson has called Obama a “n” and on tape he said he wanted to “cut his nuts off.” Senator Harry Reid talked about a “Negro dialect” that Obama does not have. Dan Rather said Obama couldn’t “sell watermelons.”

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  3. You could say Bush kissed terrorists after seeing the picture of him putting the liplock on the Saudi Prince. I don't recall and "truthers" or "birthers" or Holacaust deniers killing people or demanding Americans arm themselves. Which in itself is an ignorant idea, thinking the government or military will be intimidated by that. I think Malcontent said he was a Marine. Even if I had a machine gun, if he was prepared he'd most likely make short work of me.



    Threats and intimidation are used to chill free speech. My local paper has ten letters a week from far right kooks. One letter from a centrist or left leaner leads to dozens of despicable smear attacks and crank phone calls. I've been on the receiving end of this many times.

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  4. So it’s the “far right kooks”? Humm.... Why is it that conservatives are repeatedly and inaccurately accused of making threats againt the left, while the left conducts violent and disruptive criminal acts!
    Isn’t it the Left who promotes riots and violence when they don't get what they want. Rodney King Riots, Crown Heights Riots, and DNC in Chicago 1968 just to name a few off the top of my head. They believe in the "ends justify the means" and let's not forget all of the Leftist groups dedicated to violence and hate, the Weather Underground, Al Sharpton and his cronies of "kooks" and lets not forget the Black Panthers who intimidated the voters at the booths during the last election.

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  5. Pam,

    I know some of your best friends are LIBERALS! But, don't you think its time you quit 'pal'in' around with all these people who only want to destroy out great nation?

    I mean you yourself are aware of how they start these evil rumors and stage violent events to make conversatives look bad.

    We both know that they did not like GWB and or Sarah Palin because, gosh, they both are so much like you and me! Rather, they go off and find themselves a president that is muslim, wasn't born in the United States, and he's a socialist!

    I mean, gosh darn it, just how nice do us conservatives have to be?

    Why can't they watch Fox News like the rest of us? Why do they need all these other news channels when they do nothing but lie and spin the truth?

    Its just has to stop Pam! You have to make them all go away!

    We are nice people! But those darn evil liberals make us so mad sometimes and we say things or do things that we wouldn't normally do!

    Its their fault!

    No matter how nice you are to them they still do those little mean things that liberals always do!

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  6. That's one of Saul Alinsky's tactics, demonize your opponent whether it is true or not.

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  7. Chris W typed:

    "That's one of Saul Alinsky's tactics, demonize your opponent whether it is true or not."

    Actually Lee Atwater, Father of contemporary Republican strategy and the politics of victimization built a remarkable career on that very concept. Alinsky would have been in awe of that good ol' boy.

    Thankfully for the right-wing Atwater's legacy lives on.

    http://www.leadershipinstitute.org/

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  8. Atwater was more like "tell it like it is".

    But I too tire of the references to the Alinsky conspiracy, which is pretty hollow, and paints Obama as a mere puppet of nebulous controlling forces. It's as unintellectual as the PNAC conspiracy claims.

    I don't agree with many (most?) of Barack Obama's policies, but this does not mean I want to paint him as a Manchurian candidate or Machiavellian supervillain.

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  9. On July 27, 2008, Jim David Adkisson walked into the sanctuary of the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church carrying a sawed-off shotgun concealed in a violin case. He opened fire on congregants who were watching the performance of a children's play.

    Two people, Greg McKendry, 60, and Linda Kraeger, 61, were killed, and seven others were wounded, two critically.

    In a four-page, handwritten note found in his Ford Escape. Adkisson explained why he targeted this UU church, according to Knoxville police investigator Steve Still. “Adkisson hated the church,” Still said, "because of its liberal teachings and his belief that liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country.”

    While searching Adkisson's house, Still collected three dog-eared books: The O'Reilly Factor, by TV commentator Bill O'Reilly; Liberalism is a Mental Disorder, by radio personality Michael Savage; and Let Freedom Ring, by Fox News pundit Sean Hannity. These and other right-wing books, such as Ann Coulter's Godless: The Church of Liberalism, are must-reading for liberal-hating conservatives.

    According to the Miami Herald's Leonard Pitts: "No, conservatives did not cause this bloodbath. Jim Adkisson allegedly did. But in telling him 'liberals' were the source of his every disaffection and woe, conservatives certainly validated the hatred and madness that drove him.”

    According to Bill Maxwell of the St. Petersburg Times: "One of the biggest contemporary ironies is that being liberal in the United States of America, home of history's greatest democracy, has become dangerous. That danger is particularly acute for religious liberals, as the recent tragedy in Knoxville demonstrated,"

    And then there is this: HOW TO INCITE INSURRECTION AND SPIN THE TALE ON THE DONKEY which contains 21 links documenting incitement and calls for violence from right wing extremists, the same kind of crap I read here in comments from Malcontent and others who employ the same language in their diatribes.

    Right wing rhetoric, threats, and intimidation have been circulating for years. Refusal to take responsibility for this crap and denying the evidence, while proffering flimsy excuses, offends me!

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  10. The important thing, I think, is to come out against whatever violence, vandalism, or bigotry one sees, regardless of whether or not the people perpetrating it share (or are closer to) your political beliefs or oppose them.

    The reason that some of these recent acts are blamed on individuals on the right is that it's the simplest explanation. (Sure, it might be liberal provocateurs framing the right, but there's as little evidence of that as there is it being people who actually are on the right... And let's face it, the explanation that is the least convoluted or conspiracy-minded generally does turn out to be the right one (or at the very least, the hypothesis to prove right or wrong, first.)

    In the wake of the passage of HCR, and given the self-described anger of many on the right--and the Tea Party folks in particular--it is most likely that it was individuals on the right leaving those voice messages, smashing those windows, cutting the gas line, etc... If/when anyone is caught, we'll know for sure, but it is the most likely scenario...

    As far as van Brunn; Your first link also mentions his birther and other posts on freeRepublic, a rightwing bbs. Whatever the right thought of him, his posting there indicates that he thought of himself as a Freeper. As for your second link (Donald Douglas, from American Power), who approvingly quotes a woman who tried to sell the idea that von Brun was a liberal, I responded to both of 'em at the time: Wingnuts and Moonbats: Right wing nut Kathy Shaidle tries to link holocaust museum shooter to left wing. von Brun was a nut, and not representative of the right wing as a whole... But when Bush's DHS put out that report about violent right wing extremism, he was the kind of guy they were targeting (whining and whimpering by The Liberty Counsel and other's "Proud Right-Wing Extremists to the contrary).

    The Bill Sparkman case absolutely was a case of folks jumping to conclusions. People go with the info they have, and there were reports that the binding and "FED" were true. It'd be good if folks withheld judgement until investigators finish their work, but unfortunately, that's never going to happen, whether it's Bill Sparkman the OK City bombing (remember who was being blamed for that in the first hours?), or even this most recent case, where a christian militia group was picked up for plotting to kill a bunch of police officers, and a few who rushed to judgement, are wondering why Christians, rather than Muslims--as though the US gov't hasn't stopped any Muslim extremist plots, recently. (I've only gotten off a tweet on that one, so far...).

    I think you're mistaken about your reaction to the Stark post; While he did dislike all government/taxes, mc Joan is right about the larger issue of anti-government rhetoric, which can be found among tea party (and in some cases, Republican) thought.

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  11. Octo said: "Refusal to take responsibility for this crap and denying the evidence, while proffering flimsy excuses, offends me!"

    Has it been documented in which of the four books you named that there is a call for any sort of violence?

    Until actual evidence is provided, there's not even anything to deny.

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  12. the malcontent wrote: …Why isn't it wrong for anyone to demean and be hateful to anyone else…

    Mal: As far as I’m concerned it is wrong for anyone to demean and be hateful to anyone else. I think I’ve made that pretty clear right here on my blog on quite a few occasions; however it is blatantly ignored and I am blatantly disrespected as well as conspired against because I don’t fall lock-step with the rest of the sheeple.

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  13. Pam,

    Here's a thought. Let's for a minute imagine your blog as a microcosm of America today. And the blog comments as, like, the neighbourhood.

    Time and time again we've tried to get into some intelligent, rational, adult debate, using facts and reality-based thinking.

    And I can speak for just me personally that time and time again the call for rational, reality-based debate is ignored and I get, for example, called UnAmerican, religious epithets, and so on and so on, and then it's just all kinds of screaming and distractions and no actual attempt whatsoever to get to an actual debate.

    And generally it's because when the tough questions get asked, that people don't want to answer, instead of answering them, they start a fight about some other crap, or call you unamerican, or say you're a traitor and need to GTF out of the country or something to this effect. Or that you're the Queen of repeated mantras, which is a phrase that manages to be offensive and yet completely inane at the same time.

    So going back to the macrocosm, this is what's going on. There are very few people, in the big picture, who are actually adequately informed about anything that's going on. These people get their information second and third hand, from forwarded emails, and from other disenfranchised-feeling, pissed off people in the break room at work.

    They're angry, but they really can't explain exactly why, and when someone actually calls them on it and they realize they have no cogent answer, everything breaks down.

    And too often it breaks down into violence, when there's no where left to go with it.

    Now, both sides, equally, have to come out against violence. There's no good that can come of it and unfortunately I think there are those who do promote it-implicitly, tacitly, however-for their own political gain. We've seen that over the past two years now.

    But while it's wrong and it has to stop, I don't think it's so very mysterious. It's exactly what happens here, on a bigger scale.

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  14. Dmarks, have you been following the story of the sacking of David Frum from the American Enterprise Institute?

    Curiously, Frum said sometime last week, in his opinion, that the Republican Party works for Fox News, and he was vehement in his belief that it should be the reverse, i.e., Fox should work for the party.

    But my question is this: How objective is our news media when they are themselves partisan? How can we trust them? And how reliable is their presentation of news when it serves a partisan interest? My questions are merely rhetorical ... and tinged with irony.

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  15. Satyavati: You have displayed extreme patience, courtesy and bipartisanship here and I appreciate you and your efforts immensely.

    I agree that there are way too many people who don’t have enough information or who get their information from sources which are skewed. This can prove detrimental when having rational discussions as we’ve experienced here—unfortunately.

    I try to be open-minded because I believe that tunnel vision leads to blindness. I’m not saying that I’ll change my views or beliefs but I’m willing to listen to the “other side”. I’m also willing to answer questions when asked because I have enough faith in myself and my convictions. I think that people who evade questions are either insecure or don’t know the answer. And if they don’t know the answer then they should just say so, there is no shame in that. No one knows everything.

    The anger has reached levels that I’m not able to tolerate. It’s not just here either. I read comments and blog posts from both sides that just turn my stomach. I’m not sure how to handle it anymore other than to delete just about every single comment and to stop visiting blogs altogether.

    But I have to deal with the people who come here just to instigate my readers and others who want to derail my endeavors for bipartisanship. Which seems to have worked this time because I lost 35 followers in the last 6 days. I guess the sheeple have finally obeyed their leader! Good riddance to them. I’d rather have rational, intelligent people with original thoughts than sheeple who spew talking-points on cookie-cutter blogs anyway.


    In short, your “theory” is noted, but now that those 35 people are gone most of the problems are gone with them. Nevertheless I will keep better track of my commenters and that includes anyone who instigates or tries to derail the topic or my endeavors, because I will not give up on my ultimate goal.

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  16. I have great respect for a conservative who puts their picture in my followers list, and that includes you Pam, Thank you!

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  17. Octo: I've never known of any objective news media. Some hide it better than others. C-SPAN seems to honestly come close to such a goal.

    I'm not sure what this has to do with my question looking for evidence of what was claimed earlier: calls for violence in the 4 books you listed.

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  18. Also, Leonard Pitts used to be a favorite columnist of mine. Not anymore. Not with this "rip the heart out of the First Amendment" claims that attempt to tar peaceful dissent alongside such criticism that actually calls for violence.

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  19. Pamela D. Hart said...

    I think I’ve made that pretty clear right here on my blog on quite a few occasions; however it is blatantly ignored and I am blatantly disrespected as well as conspired against because I don’t fall lock-step with the rest of the sheeple.


    HMMM....Seems like I've been saying that for a while. Perhaps the more people undergo hit tactics by liars in their own camp will make US a larger group of more objective and conservative people. Until that day, rock on Pam. xoxoxo

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  20. Pointing out that far too many folks on the right are engaged in the use of threats, racial slurs, slander and outright lying and isn't quite the same as 'controlling free speech'. And the idea that discussing those lies is somehow going to 'chill free speech' is yet another example of the triumph of right-wing politics of victimization.

    For example to suggest Rep. John Lewis is making stuff up takes us back to the days many had hoped were gone forever.

    Bringing attention to the ugly tactics of folks ranging from Sarah Palin to John Boehner to the average teapartier holding an Obama=Muslim placard is a good thing.

    It's free speech in the purest form.

    Cheers!

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  21. Arthurstone said...


    For example to suggest Rep. John Lewis is making stuff up takes us back to the days many had hoped were gone forever.


    Are you suggesting that he made those things up back in the '60s? How dare you, sir!

    Show the proof that it isn't made up. There was a black soldier back in the day that couldn't have a discussion with anyone without claiming they used the N word. I equate much of that behavior to earlier examples. So, it could very well be that he DID make it up. It would certainly follow all of the propaganda your side spews along with your warped view of America.

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  22. Folks like Lewis were indeed accused of making stuff up back in the 50's & 60's. And they were accused of being Communists, anti-American and a whole litany of epithets we hoped were out of use forever.

    But they're back.

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  23. I'm not talking about back then, but if you think the past is now, well that's on you. I think that trying to make a correlation between tea party activists and the FBI is dishonest at the least and foolish on the surface.

    Comparing the healthcare bill to civil rights for U.S. Citizens is the same as the other comparisons of different models. But, you seem to excel at make to unlike comparisons.

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  24. Pamela - I have to deal with the people who come here just to instigate my readers and others who want to derail my endeavors for bipartisanship. Which seems to have worked this time because I lost 35 followers in the last 6 days.

    Pamela, earlier today this story went online at the Huffington Post:

    Nine teens have been charged in the "unrelenting" bullying of a teenage girl from Ireland who killed herself after being raped and enduring months of torment by classmates in person and online, a prosecutor said Monday (…) Northwestern District Attorney Elizabeth Scheibel said 15-year-old Phoebe Prince of South Hadley was stalked and harassed nearly constantly from September until she killed herself Jan. 14 (…) Sayer noted that much of Prince's bullying was "done online …” (source).

    So how is this story relevant to this post and the comment thread herein? For over a year, you have also been a victim of cyber-bullying by people who have disrespected you, tormented and abused you, violated your boundaries, accused you of being a RINO and a traitor, threatened you with ostracism, and sullied your reputation … in short, an unrelenting onslaught of cyber-bullying.

    Except for one detail. Those who bullied you are presumably not children or teenagers but adults who have tormented you in the name of politics. Except for one detail. These are not adults but low-life scum who bully for sadistic pleasure and sport, and their bullying has nothing to do with politics. In fact, they give your cause a bad name.

    Best to be rid of them. There are bloggers who also consider you a friend, and respect you and love you all the same … which has nothing to do with politics. Your friends will always stand with you.

    My apologies for being away (taxes and family matters and a rant or two of my own have kept me away). Now I’m b-a-a-c-c-k-k … !!!

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  25. bluepitbull typed:

    Are you suggesting that he made those things up back in the '60s? How dare you, sir!

    He then added:

    I'm not talking about back then, but if you think the past is now, well that's on you


    Hmmmmm.

    Oh well. For what it's worth I didn't mention the health care bill. I only mentioned the shabby treatment Rep. Lewis received and it's historical precedents. Nor did I mention the FBI. 'Real Americans' back in the day couldn't restrain themselves from questioning Civil Right's leaders motives, truthfulness and political reliability.

    Just like the Tea Partiers of today.

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  26. Arthurstone said...

    bluepitbull typed:

    Are you suggesting that he made those things up back in the '60s? How dare you, sir!


    Are you being ignorant or just stupid? It was a joke.


    He then added:

    I'm not talking about back then, but if you think the past is now, well that's on you



    Hmmmmm.

    Yes, you can't understand sarcasm and you dwell in the past.


    Oh well. For what it's worth I didn't mention the health care bill. I only mentioned the shabby treatment Rep. Lewis received and it's historical precedents. Nor did I mention the FBI. 'Real Americans' back in the day couldn't restrain themselves from questioning Civil Right's leaders motives, truthfulness and political reliability.


    You knew exactly what you meant, you still didn't prove that anyone was rude to him, all you have is his word and we all know what the word of a legislator is worth.



    Just like the Tea Partiers of today.

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  27. “Nine teens have been charged in the "unrelenting" bullying of a teenage girl from Ireland who killed herself after being raped and enduring months of torment by classmates in person and online, a prosecutor said Monday (…) Northwestern District Attorney Elizabeth Scheibel said 15-year-old Phoebe Prince of South Hadley was stalked and harassed nearly constantly from September until she killed herself Jan. 14 (…) Sayer noted that much of Prince's bullying was "done online …” (source).

    So how is this story relevant to this post and the comment thread herein? For over a year, you have also been a victim of cyber-bullying by people who have disrespected you, tormented and abused you, violated your boundaries, accused you of being a RINO and a traitor, threatened you with ostracism, and sullied your reputation … in short, an unrelenting onslaught of cyber-bullying.


    Interesting how you're attempting to make a correlation between a young girl that was raped, and physically abused and tortured at school with some online crazies.

    I will agree that Pam has been done an injustice, but really?

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  28. Before this allegedly spitting and “N”word calling incident even allegedly took place, one of the Capitol policemen was quoted as saying that he had spotted a few well know agitators trying to blend in with the Teaparty crowd. And that this person was on the list of trouble makers. So if you connect the dots the whole alleged non-incident is a big crock that was cooked up by the usual suspects... And probably by Rahm Emanuel or David Axelrod or one of those beauties... . The congressman John Lewis purposely walked through a crowd that he said he knew as being hostile crowd, trying to provoke a reaction and when he didn't get one, he just decided to
    make one up. Just as his Boss Barack does about receiving those so called letters from those children of those poor, poor people that are on the verge of dying and in need of Health-Care.

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  29. In my opinion, this whole episode was planed and set up to discredit the Tea Party movement.
    Remember that old saying: a lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth even gets out of bed.

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  30. Remember that old saying: a lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth even gets out of bed.

    Kinda like these:

    -Obama's a Muslim
    -Obama Wasn't Born Here
    -Obama's a Socialist
    -The Government Death Panels Will Pull The Plug On Grama
    -You Can See Russia From Anchorage
    -Everybody's Equal In America
    -The US Has The Best Healthcare In The World

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  31. BPB,

    Was I talking to you? My comment is addressed to Pamela, and only Pamela. Mind your own frackin' business!

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  32. OOOOHHHH!!!!

    Don't tell me what to do, if you comment in a forum, everyone can challenge.

    Need a tissue?

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  33. Show the proof that it isn't made up.

    I can appreciate that there is no concrete proof that anyone spit at or yelled bigoted epithets at black/gay/female representatives, and that one must listen to the stories those involved and those witnessing are telling and judge the veracity for themselves, but the idea that anyone can prove a negative is pretty far out there...

    I guess it's like that proverbial tree falling in the woods... Obviously there are some who would argue against its making any sound, because there's no audio or video "proving" there is one... (Or, in language some might better relate to and thus understand, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Don Rumsfeld)

    As far as the wacky "false flag" birther/truther/deather-style conspiracy theories being tossed out by a few desperate souls on the right as regards these acts of bigotry and vandalism, I stand with Occam and his razor; the simplest explanations tend to be the most credible... Of course, YMMV...

    As far as making comparisons between two things that are dissimilar in many ways, but alike in one or two, they're called analogies, and they can be perfectly valid... ...at least once folks realize that they can learn far more about both the apple and the orange once they stop demanding that we compare two apples, instead... (as though there's much of anything to be gained by saying "an apple is alot like an apple...")

    There's no doubt that online bullying and intimidation (whether it be among high school teens, or politically partisan bloggers) can be pretty vicious and dangerous, and that each individual needs to decide how much of themselves they're willing to reveal, how much bad behavior they're willing to take from others, and what they're going to do once that line has been crossed...

    Mal: I'd be interested in going to your source to read about that Capitol police officer discussing those well-known agitators who set up the Tea Party. Any chance you can reveal where you read that? (Unlike others, I'm not prepared to say such a report doesn't exist, but I sure am skeptical...)

    The idea that John Lewis got what was coming to him because "he was just askin' for it" by being out in that crowd is pretty damned offensive, dude... (One wonders whether you'd say the same about rape victims out too late at night, or Breitbart, who claims to've been mistreated while walking out among the more leftward leaning protesters in NV this past weekend... Or are those situations somehow different?)

    (I got nothin' on the more personality driven silliness... You're all on your own, there...)

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  34. Oh... Lookie what I found...

    Andrew Breitbart Offers $10,000 Prize for Anyone Who Can Document Tea Party Protesters Yelling:

    "To: Starboard; Nachum

    This whole episode was fabricated in an effort to discredit the Tea Party. There is NO WAY the Capitol Police would have tolerated that many epithets without stepping in to control the situation. And they didn’t, because they didn’t have to.
    Yup, that's what my husband and I believe... we were there on Saturday (and Sunday). There were members of the Capitol Police escorting the congressmen (who did not have to be in the middle of the Tea Party crowd... they could have used the underground tunnels like all the other members of Congress did). Plus, as the article states, members of Rep. Lewis' entourage were filming everything - using two cameras. So let's see their film.

    Before this "incident" allegedly took place, one of the Capitol policemen told my husband that they had spotted a few "professional agitators" trying to blend in with the Tea Party crowd at one point.

    The whole non-incident is a big LIE, cooked up by the democRATs... probably by Rahm Emanuel or David Axelrod. The congressmen purposely walked through a "hostile" crowd, trying to provoke a reaction - didn't get one - so they made up a story, and their fellow 'RAT Congressmen and the MSM backed them up and spread the word.

    54 posted on March 26, 2010 2:44:14 AM EDT by nutmeg (Bart Stupak: Judas, Neville Chamberlain or Benedict Arnold?)
    [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]"


    Dude... If you're going to copy someone else's post, at least give 'em credit, rather than passing it off as though you wrote it yourself...

    ReplyDelete
  35. Satyavati devi dasi said...

    Remember that old saying: a lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth even gets out of bed.

    Kinda like these:

    -Obama's a Muslim
    -Obama Wasn't Born Here
    -Obama's a Socialist
    -The Government Death Panels Will Pull The Plug On Grama
    -You Can See Russia From Anchorage
    -Everybody's Equal In America
    -The US Has The Best Healthcare In The World...

    ---------------------------------
    No I mean like this..
    Health Care Negotiations on C-span
    No family making less than $250,000 will see any form of tax increase.
    Executive Order stating, Guantanamo shall be closed no later than one year from the date of this Executive order January 22, 2009.
    Khalid Sheik Mohammad is gonna get basically, a full military trial
    "I will make sure that we renegotiate NAFTA"
    I could no more disown Jeremiah Wright than I could disown my own grandmother
    "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided."
    "I will bring the jobs from over seas so we can provide jobs for the hard working Americans here”
    "There will be no public funding for abortion in this legislation."
    So lay off the crack Saty, your not making any sense, what your refuting is sarcasm! And that’s fine, I’m a big fan of sarcasm but don’t present it as if it’s factual.

    ReplyDelete
  36. I don't suppose anyone can guess what comment #75 at that same Free Republic link says...

    Yeesh...

    ReplyDelete
  37. Of course you would use Occam's Razor in this case, and you are fairly safe making this assumption since your party controls the flow of media, you will probably never hear anything to the contrary.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Occam's Razor & media?

    Please explain what you mean, because my understanding of OR is that it discusses the simplicity vs complexity of explanations (and the concept that the simpler explanation most often turns out to be the most factual one, as well), and has nothing to do with media, media bias, or even popular opinion (however that opinion is arrived at--or manufactured, which is, I believe, what you are alleging).

    ReplyDelete
  39. Fair enough, I will explain my point.

    When you control the message, you control the perceptions. Ergo, the simplest explanation is that Tea Party members are all crazed, mind numbed zombies who are mostly white and republican (your media definition). Don't deny it. If you control the media you can say anything you want and make alot out of nothing.

    I still believe that if there were any concrete proof, it would have come out by now. And I think that you and I both know that Pelosi wouldn't have waited to stand up with her giant gavel and tell all about it since it would have furthered her cause, which was to ram a pos legislation down the throats of those who don't support it. And yes, it all does come back to the healthcare debate. That still seems to be the one polarizing argument in front of all of us.

    ReplyDelete
  40. bluepitbull typed:

    'You knew exactly what you meant, you still didn't prove that anyone was rude to him, all you have is his word and we all know what the word of a legislator is worth.'

    I'm inclined to take Lewis at his word. Your useless generalization says more about you than about our legislators. I mean really. Politicians, journalists, (fill in the blank) all lie, dissemble, cheat, steal etc. blah blah blah.

    Let's you off the hook doesn't it?





    "Just like the Tea Partiers of today."

    If you're saying Tea Partiers play fast and loose with the truth I agree. If this is another stab at irony or sarcasm I'm afraid it eludes me.

    ReplyDelete
  41. So lay off the crack Saty, your not making any sense, what your refuting is sarcasm! And that’s fine, I’m a big fan of sarcasm but don’t present it as if it’s factual.

    Factual? Let's take a look.

    GREAT BIG LIES:

    -Obama's a Muslim
    Uh.. no.

    -Obama Wasn't Born Here
    Born in Hawaii.

    -Obama's a Socialist
    Only to people who aren't Socialists. Those who are, know better. The man is a centrist.

    -The Government Death Panels Will Pull The Plug On Grama
    No. No one is pulling the plug on Grama. Period.

    -You Can See Russia From Anchorage
    No, you can't. Not even with a telescope, baby.

    -Everybody's Equal In America
    Not even on paper.

    -The US Has The Best Healthcare In The World
    Currently ranked at #37, with higher rates of preventable death and infant mortality than a lot of those 'socialist' systems Americans like to demonize.

    Who's not factual, Mal?

    ReplyDelete
  42. Interestingly enough in an interview the other day in the local paper the young (30ish with nose ring) woman who founded the local Seattle (???!!!) Tea Party Chapter took a great deal of pride in the fact(s) that she was new to politics. She hadn't voted previously. She was not particularly well informed (duh) and she had spent the first third of her life actively disengaged from the entire civic process of citizenship.

    Now that doesn't maker her a crazed, mind numbed zombie but it clearly underscores how ill-informed she is, how little she time she has actually spent in the process & how unrealistic her expectations are.

    And, more importantly, how proud she is of those accomplishments.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Ergo, the simplest explanation is that Tea Party members are all crazed, mind numbed zombies who are mostly white and republican (your media definition).

    I don't know who you're talking to, but I've neither said or suggested anything of the kind (and for my money, neither has much of the media... though, I'm open to reviewing quotes from said media proving otherwise.)

    The simplest explanation to which I was referring says that the windows that were broken out at Dem offices, the nasty messages critical of health care votes that were left on Dem answering machines, the cut gas line at the Dem rep's brother's house (after his home address was posted on a Tea Party "patriot's" website, rather than the rep's home address), and the bigoted comments that were alleged to've come from the middle of the Tea Party crowd a week or so ago were most likely done by people critical of those Democrats, rather than by false flag agent provocateur Democrats looking to frame the Tea Party, which is a far more convoluted, conspiracy-minded theory (both on the part of the provocateurs committing the acts, and the right wingers who're now claiming--with no more proof than they're demanding of those who say they know those acts were committed by the right--that that's what happened...)

    Don't deny it.

    I have no need to deny anything... I hold to the idea that the onus is on the individual(s) making the charge to back it up with whatever evidence (or speculation) they have... That's why you'll never hear me say that I know John Lewis was in fact called anything by anyone last week... I do find him credible and I do believe his story, but I also agree with you folks that so far, there is no concrete proof...

    As far as these things go, I find Occam's Razor and plain old common sense to be persuasive... But that doesn't prove that I'm right, or that you're wrong, or much of anything else... As I said in a previous comment, unless/until someone offers something more concrete, folks'll just have to weigh what little evidence and "testimony" there is, put it together with common sense and human nature, and draw their own conclusions...

    ReplyDelete
  44. Satyavati-

    I actually thought of you when I saw her photo. Her's was a very hip look combined with ghastly politics. And what stood out for me was that many images of Tea Partiers I've seen (and what I saw at a rally I attended) include acres of polyester, tight perms and sensible shoes. GOPwear.

    ReplyDelete
  45. bluepitbull (at March 30, 2010 4:36 PM) - “OOOOHHHH!!!! … Need a tissue?

    It seems you learned nothing about online civility these past six months, and your default mode is to provoke and taunt people at every opportunity. Do you remember this incident? Here is a recap for your reading pleasure:

    Progressive Eruptions, the reality (Friday, October 2, 2009): Progressive Eruptions is one natural, eternal orgasm for Shaw Kenawe dedicated to obama. Her obsession with him and her apologies are indicative of this … [link to photo posted by BPB] … (Posted by bluepitbull at 3:25 PM).”

    After that incident, this is what other conservative bloggers thought of your vile post:

    Jennifer - I don't imagine my comment at BPB was liked …

    Pasadena Closet Conservative - Nobody deserves to be attacked, especially in the way that is happening to her.

    Patrick M - BluePitbull, if you want to try bullying someone, bring it on. I've bitch slapped more intelligent and reasonable people than the likes of you. You'd barely warm me up, you cowardly bastard.”

    Bluepitbull, you were a predator, a stalker, and a cyber-bully six months ago; but now you have become a SERIAL stalker. It seems you still taunt Shaw (and TAO and others) as if you have learned nothing.

    Keep your damn tissue. You’ll need it, you filthy coward!

    ReplyDelete
  46. Arthur said: "how little she time she has actually spent in the process & how unrealistic her expectations are."

    Yeah, soon enough she will learn that politics isn't that responsive or responsible, and she'll become jaded and cynical like the rest of us.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Dmarks quotes

    "bluepitbull said...

    Arthurstone said...

    bluepitbull typed:"

    This nested stuff makes me dizzy.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Arthur said: "And the idea that discussing those lies is somehow going to 'chill free speech' is yet another example of the triumph of right-wing politics of victimization."

    Actually, attempts to label mere criticism of Obama's healthcare plan as racist are pretty common now. I've argued with a liberal blogger over this for a long time, and have found this view many other places. What is going on here is a form of racism itself, where Obama is shielded from criticism because of his skin color.

    In this, the victimization is real.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Finally, Arthur said: "For example to suggest Rep. John Lewis is making stuff up takes us back to the days many had hoped were gone forever."

    So, to catch a modern politician in a lie takes us back to what old days, exactly, Arthur???

    Lewis has been caught crying wolf on racism before. See this page, in which Lewis conjures racial statements using pure imagination:

    "Georgia Rep. John Lewis accused the McCain campaign of stoking racial fires and fanning the racial hatred from supporters at McCain/Palin rallies around the country. The basis for Lewis’ remarks seem to be the discussion Obama’s ties to William Aryes and Gov. Sarah Palin’s claim that Obama was “palling around with terrorists” in Chicago."

    It is from October 2008. Sorry, Rep. Lewis, it is a flat out lie to say that pointing out the fact of Pres. Obama's past association with a terrorist is in any way racial.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Don't let them get to you Bluepitbull, I still love you.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Pamela - You said;

    "In short, your “theory” is noted, but now that those 35 people are gone most of the problems are gone with them. Nevertheless I will keep better track of my commenters and that includes anyone who instigates or tries to derail the topic or my endeavors, because I will not give up on my ultimate goal."

    I agree. And the ultimate goal, at least IMO, is to set this nations course on a return to recognizing constitutional values and law and upholding the same.

    We have strayed from the values that at one time made this country the freest, wealthiest, fairest, and most rational nation the world has ever witnessed.

    I know there will be those on the left that will take issue with my statement and deride both my integrity and intelligence. Not to mention my love of country.

    However I, like you, know that when I am right, that when I have more tolerance (true not bogus or phony like the left) I am the better person for it.

    Stay with the fight for liberty and individual freedoms. Stand by the constitution and the vision of men and women with by far more intelligence and patriotism than most of todays so called liberals ever had or ever will.

    Thanks for giving me the space to share my views and convictions. Your civility is something to be admired, by both sides of the political divide.

    Les Carpenter III
    Rational Nation USA

    ReplyDelete
  52. I’m very sorry Pamela, but I also stopped following your blog... It just hasn’t lived up to what you always say in your opening comments. You talk like a true Conservative on your opening remarks and then when people comment you seem to “wimp” out and take the low road. You agree with every Liberal and never seem stand up to any of them. And then your blog becomes a platform for the liberals to name call, and knock everyone and everything that conservatives say.
    Are the hateful commentors the uneducated percentile who speak before they think? Is it too easy for us to sit safely behind our computers and say whatever we please with no recourse? The hateful commentors that you seem to draw there are very bias and not at all the type of blog that I want my name to be associated with. Im not complaining about what you do, you have every right to do what you want to, but I don’t want to be there with you when you sucker up to them.
    But seriously, when I read the first part of your blog, I get inspired, but when I read your comments I start to think if you really meant what you say or are your just intimidated by these people. Besides, I feel that your blog has become a place for vulgar and hateful liberal comments. And that the liberals get a free pass for their bad behavior.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Pamela has deleted at least a dozen of my comments.


    But seeing as how she's lost app. 40 followers for no other reason I can see than she wasn't mean enough to me, I shall do what I should have done long ago and become one of Pamela's followers for three reasons:


    She's a good writer and thinker.


    She welcomes all points of view to her blog.


    It pisses off the righties who stopped following her.



    Now I await all the comments from the righties saying they don't care if I follow Pamela's Oracular Opinion even though they do or they wouldn't leave a comment saying they didn't.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Really???

    She and I discussed this at length octonut. YOU are an antagonist who has gotten mad at Pam and been rude to her before. You are worse than anyone here and hypocritical for pointing fingers. so...get bent.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Sorry Pamela. I saw you lost three more followers since I signed up.

    I'll unsign if you want.


    But this does satisfy my curiosity as to just how many blogs ne person can have.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Truth: ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    Through my research I found the culprit. The person responsible is welcome to all 50 of those followers! The only problem I see is that the person who got them to stop following is STILL following me. I would call that HYPOCRITICAL! And it’s also funny that those 50 followers don’t leave comments on that person’s blog because the culprit’s comment count hasn’t gone up!

    Justice WILL prevail. Nasty people never win. Maliciousness never wins. I have ALWAYS been respectful and kind and I will continue to do so in spite of being betrayed and stabbed in the back.

    Oh and "a" person can have more than one blog. I've found out a lot doing my research since last Wednesday, March 24th, believe me.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Blue: I believe I told you that Octo and I had a falling out and that Octo was big enough to apologize first. He has been very supportive of me ever since and what he’s doing now is trying to point out that I’m a target of “cyber-bullying”—yet again. You have been a target of these tactics in the past too--intimidation, boycotts, etc. It’s all “bullying” and done by cowards. You and I are very familiar with the type.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Pam, he can either apologize to me for the attack or I can get jiggy with him.

    He looked for reasons to hate me many times even when I showed him there wasn't any.

    Mal....fuck you. You badmouth me and then tell me you love me? Please. Get a different shirt.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Pamela - “Blue: I believe I told you that Octo and I had a falling out and that Octo was big enough to apologize first. He has been very supportive of me ever since and what he’s doing now is trying to point out that I’m a target of “cyber-bullying”—yet again.”

    Exactly right, which is why I referenced this article, Cyberbullies Charged With Harassing Teen Who Killed Herself After Rape, in my comment posted on March 30, 2010 2:33 PM (above).

    In response to this comment, Bluepitbull said this:

    Interesting how you're attempting to make a correlation between a young girl that was raped, and physically abused and tortured at school with some online crazies … but really?

    Really, bluepitbull! There are people who think the crime of rape is about sex. It is not. Criminologists and psychologists will tell you that rape is a crime involving power and domination over women. Let me state this one more time so folks like bluepitbull and Malcontent get it:

    Rape is a crime of involving power and domination over women!

    One does not have to be physically raped to feel violated. There are people who think cyber-bullying is about partisanship and politics. It is not. Cyber-bullying is a form emotional rape, and the dynamics are the same: It is motivated by an impulse to hold power and domination over people. Let me state this one more time so folks like bluepitbull and Malcontent get it:

    Cyber-bullying is a form of emotional rape motivated by an impulse to hold power and domination over people!

    And that is what Shaw felt when bluepitbull bullied her on the Internet. She felt violated, emotionally raped. That is why I wrote this article, Stop sadistic and sexist cyber-bullying now. Too bad Bluepitbull still doesn’t get it. He has an insatiable impulse to overpower and dominate people in his web interactions … and beyond.

    And he is still doing it … without conscience … having learned nothing.

    Three months ago, I wrote this article, A Blessed Kristallnacht To All, in defense of Pamela who was assailed online over the Christmas holiday as she is being assailed right now. That is why I said this:

    For over a year, you [Pamela] have also been a victim of cyber-bullying by people who have disrespected you, tormented and abused you, violated your boundaries, accused you of being a RINO and a traitor, threatened you with ostracism … in short, an unrelenting onslaught of cyber-bullying.”

    If there is anyone reading this who thinks cyber-bullying is harmless, think again. People have been hurt, and there have been several deaths attributed to online abuse. Here are a few links that document such cases:

    Suicide of teenager attributed to cyber-bullying

    Men who hate women on the Web

    Prominent blogger Kathy Sierra has called on the blogosphere to combat the culture of abuse online.

    Let me repeat: Cyber-bullying is equivalent to emotional rape. It is about power and domination over people, and those who do it are as contemptible as any criminal.

    ReplyDelete
  60. bluepitbull said...
    Mal....fuck you. You badmouth me and then tell me you love me? Please. Get a different shirt.




    Sweetheart, why would you even say something like that?

    ReplyDelete
  61. Octo ridiculously said:

    "Let me repeat: Cyber-bullying is equivalent to emotional rape. It is about power and domination over people, and those who do it are as contemptible as any criminal."


    Seriously Mr. BPB... You're not a half bad Person ... I’m sure that one half of you is really great.
    You are going to be Smacked around like a Limp Mouse by an Alley Cat by this Liberal bunch if you let them pull crap on you like Octo is doing right now.
    Don’t just walk away from this one, smack em back... Just giving you a sense of purpose..
    Just a Friendly Suggestion. Being friendly and being a friend is not the same thing...
    Would you like Clarification on anything else? Just ask, it will be my pleasure.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Most excellent post indeed. Beautifully done. I am adding you to my blogroll.

    ReplyDelete
  63. I have people each day compliment me on the fit and quality of one of my several Turner Original T's Mal. I have a bugandy one I wear with my blue tweed sportcaot to church and everyone thinks it's a great look.


    I can get you a deal buddy. That is if you want BPB to stop making fun of you.

    ReplyDelete
  64. TRUTH 101 said...
    I have people each day compliment me on the fit and quality of one of my several Turner Original T's Mal. I have a bugandy one I wear with my blue tweed sportcaot to church and everyone thinks it's a great look.

    Thanks for your most generous offer, however I only wear “Canali” Shirts, Suits, Jackets Slacks, etc, something neither you or he would know nothing about. I doubt if they are even sold in “Hick Towns”
    And by the way, you shouldn't assume... Have someone explain it to you.

    ReplyDelete
  65. As an America I am always glad to see a Veteran who can afford $200 shirts.

    Congratulations on your success Malcontent. But it does confuse me that a guy that can afford $200 shirts isn't content. I'll take your advice and ask a rich guy about it.

    ReplyDelete
  66. however I only wear “Canali” Shirts, Suits, Jackets Slacks, etc,

    Metrosexual fashion-hound designer-whore men creep me out.

    I'm so much more the blue-collar proletariat type: white t shirt, jeans, workboots.

    Anything else is bougeoisie.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Satyavati devi dasi said...
    Anything else is bougeoisie.

    Coming from someone who most likly wears Combat-Boots to a 5 star restaurant, I'll take that as a BIG compliment.

    On second thought, have you ever even been near a 5 star restaurant?

    ReplyDelete
  68. "Coming from someone who most likly wears Combat-Boots to a 5 star restaurant,"

    See, I like that 'most likely' thing. What that actually means is: "I don't have the first clue and I don't know Jack Shit in the box about you, but I'm going to make negative assumptions because it makes me feel good to do so."

    You don't know how I dress, what I wear, whether I can place my order at the restaurant in flawless French (or Thai for that matter). You don't know.

    But you have to say something, so you make stuff up.

    You're like a very small, very insignificant Glenn Beck.

    Do you cry too?

    ReplyDelete
  69. Satyavati devi dasi said...
    You're like a very small, very insignificant Glenn Beck.
    Do you cry too



    Hee, hee, hee..... And that was my attempt of being polite.

    Do I cry too?
    All the time..

    ReplyDelete
  70. Personally I prefer Zegna and Armani Black Label.

    Nicer fabrics.

    But it's a close call.

    If I'm spending a day assisting government take over the economy or setting up re-education camps I'll likely wear a nice pair of Armani Black Label wool slacks (dark brown, flat front) and a Barneys cashmere long sleeve polo in black. Flattering to the middle-aged male figure and imparting a certain casual elegance.

    ReplyDelete
  71. SDD: As someone who greatly respects the United States military, I have no problem with you wearing combat boots.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Satyavati: I LOVE guys in a t-shirt, jeans and work boots. My husband is one HOT dude in that get- up. However, he’s hot in any get-up—even his suit, although he does have two, but I prefer him in jeans. That whole “metro-sexual” style on men just doesn’t work for me—never did. I like manly men.

    ReplyDelete
  73. I have no problem with you wearing combat boots.

    Standard Issue's just not comfortable. Doc Martens are so much more the way to go if that's your style. On an ordinary day I'm a Birkis girl but that's because they're the best thing for work.

    Pam: All hail to manly men! Mine works in construction.. he hasn't owned a suit in about forever. On a fancier occasion he rocks the white dress shirt and jeans look, or, if it's something practically formal he might put on some Dockers.

    Gotta love a man who works with his hands....

    ReplyDelete
  74. Satyavati devi dasi said...
    All hail to manly men! Mine works in construction.. he hasn't owned a suit in about forever. On a fancier occasion he rocks the white dress shirt and jeans look, or, if it's something practically formal he might put on some Dockers.

    That's sweet! But why am I not shocked! By the way, there's a sale going on this week at K-Mart.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Any man who feels compelled to brag about what shirts he wears and what restaurants he patronizes is NO MAN. Driving a flashy sports car or a big motorcycle does not put a pair of balls on eunuch. In others, Malcontent, the cannoli is on your plate, not in your pants.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Octopüß said...
    Any man who feels compelled to brag about what shirts he wears and what restaurants he patronizes is NO MAN. Driving a flashy sports car or a big motorcycle does not put a pair of balls on eunuch. In others, Malcontent, the cannoli is on your plate, not in your pants.

    Wow, that's a keeper, you have received -4 reputation points for that post.... How will I ever be able to return after that witty comeback, except that I'll match my manhood ( in any way, shape or form) to yours anytime..

    ReplyDelete
  77. To me dressing nicely its got nothing to be with a need to be stylish or being able to afford $200 shirts, simply dressing in accordance with your position at work is considered, proper and respectful.
    Yes " The good ole days" Women respected themselves and so did men , we even open doors for them , remember? Or do you? We heard the word "sir” , and “thank you " and people even got married.
    Dressing up did mean something other than attending church , but feeling proud of one's appearance.
    But of course some of us prefer wearing a burka, or having our pants 6 sizes to large so that everyone can see the cracks in our ass’s.
    The hip-hop youth know a great deal about choosing their clothing like high top sneakers with the brand name on the sticker still on it or a base ball cap warn backwards or worn at what angle and in what ever direction in falls in.. It all depends on what you wish to accomplish.
    I do think you can look good in or out of a suit. But I do believe that most men look better in a suit. But like I said, it depends upon what your job position is. If Satyavati prefers the man who works with his hands like operation a Jackhammer then I wouldn’t expert that guy to wear a suit or even anything fashionable.. A pair of jeans with ripped knees and a baseball cap worn backwards would be very appropriate. Too each his own, even spandex on a 250 women is appropriate to some people.. Hawaiians shirts with a fanny pack is right up there with stuck on stupid!

    ReplyDelete
  78. simply dressing in accordance with your position at work is considered, proper and respectful.

    Which is why I wear scrubs at this job and when I was in the hospital I wore whites and a cap.

    Dressing up did mean something other than attending church , but feeling proud of one's appearance.
    But of course some of us prefer wearing a burka,


    I'm not exactly sure why you took this opportunity to bash women who dress according to their religious and cultural beliefs, but a Muslima wearing a burkha is the exact equivalent of an Amish woman wearing a plain dress and a black Kapp, or an Indian woman wearing a sari and pulling it down over her face (very commonly done as a sign of modesty), or my mother wearing a lace mantilla to High Mass. Exactly the same.

    Through all these posts, mal, you've somehow managed to try to put the trailer trash connotation onto me with your combat boots and K Mart comments. Of course, you have no actual basis for this, because you don't know me, don't know my educational and professional accomplishments, don't know what tax bracket I fall into, have no idea what my house looks like and have no idea what my total net worth is. Somehow, the fact that I'm liberal, a socialist, and think metrosexual men are squicky somehow equates to cracker trash to you.

    Not that unfounded leaps of irrationality surprise me or anything.. I'm just pointing it out.

    But I'll tell you this, mal... what people have means nothing to me. Who people are means everything. And all the money in the world doesn't make an ass less of one.

    So enjoy your $200 shirt. You don't have much else going for you that I can see.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Satyavati: There is nothing wrong with K-mart or jeans or work boots. There isn’t even anything wrong with living in a trailer park. I have a friend that did for years. She was able to save up a ton of money for a down payment on a house.

    I don’t judge people by what they HAVE. I want to know and associate with people who possess good character.

    Class and integrity are not characteristics one can purchase off a shelf. Just look at Hollywood--if there is a place that needs a dose of class and/or integrity it would be there, but even with all their money so many still come up lacking.

    Class and integrity are very rare commodities so when you find someone who possess those traits--grab onto them and treat them with the utmost respect and kindness. They are the TRUE gems.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Mal: YOUR shirt might cost $200, but how much does Channing Tatum pay for HIS?

    ReplyDelete
  81. For what it's worth the rolled up sleeves on the 'Canali shirt' and the silver tie bar lead me to believe that mal isn't quite the fashion plate he'd have us believe.

    Although conceivably he's ahead of the curve. Sadly, among certain neo-dandies tie bars are on their way back in.

    That's the beauty of fashion. Wait long enough and it all comes back.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Pamela D. Hart said...
    Mal: YOUR shirt might cost $200, but how much does Channing Tatum pay for HIS?
    ---------------------------------
    About the same price that Truth101 or Jesus Christ with a rifle pays for his.



    Arthurstone said...
    For what it's worth the rolled up sleeves on the 'Canali shirt' and the silver tie bar lead me to believe that mal isn't quite the fashion plate he'd have us believe.



    Of course it's not, I never said it was. Why wold I want to put my own picture on a public blog? No matter what you may think...I'm not that stupid.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Pam:

    Couple thoughts here.

    Plenty of folks I'd call 'trailer trash' have never seen the inside of a singlewide. I think this is maybe a more Southern concept.. it says a lot more than it sounds like.

    And as far as trailers go, we spent six hellish months in 2005 waiting for our house to be finished whilst living in a 1976 Fleetwood singlewide, way out in the country all by its lonesome on a couple of miskept acres. I lived there alone through January and February (with no furniture, actually) and never got the inside temp over 55. By April, when it was 70 outside, it was 94 inside by midmorning. By May 1 I informed my husband that if the house wasn't finished by June 1, someone was going to endure grievous bodily harm at my hands. The electric bill (and there was no AC) was higher than our rent. But we needed a place fast with no lease and room to put all our earthly possessions, and this was it.

    What did I get out of the experience? That I can live, if absolutely necessary, without such 'essentials' as a mattress, chairs, a table, and functional heat. That renters insurance is a hell of a good idea. And that given the choice, I'd rather live in a singlewide than share an adjoining wall with someone else.

    You're absolutely right. Money's temporary, as the recession has so vividly proved. The real important stuff can't be bought or sold.

    By the way, we closed on our house May 31.. they'll never know how lucky they were. :)

    ReplyDelete
  84. malcontent typed:

    "Of course it's not, I never said it was. Why wold I want to put my own picture on a public blog? No matter what you may think...I'm not that stupid."

    Let's not have that conversation malcontent. Opinions may vary. We're just talking here. You're a big fan of sarcasm.

    Remember?

    ReplyDelete
  85. Arthurstone said...
    malcontent typed:
    Let's not have that conversation malcontent. Opinions may vary. We're just talking here. You're a big fan of sarcasm.
    Remember?


    touché, as are you! This from the guy that's sitting at the search function actively seeking out all my posts, since you're replying to those en masse?
    Your obsession is getting worrisome.... but taking you seriously is something I gave up on a long time ago.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Why would it bother someone so much what other people wear? To cause such a rant?

    If you don't like certain clothes, don't wear them. Problem solved.

    ReplyDelete
  87. dmarks said...

    Why would it bother someone so much what other people wear? To cause such a rant?
    If you don't like certain clothes, don't wear them. Problem solved...


    Ask your buddy Truth and his buddy Bulldog. They are the ones that opened this topic.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Let's move on to something useful then Mally Warbucks of the $200 shirt.

    I'm heavily invested in GE stock. I think it's going to get up to the low 20's in price and my plan is to sell it then to simply get out of it and invest in something with far more profit potential.

    I figure a guy that can afford Canoli shirts must know something about this stuff. Does this sound like a good plan?

    ReplyDelete
  89. TRUTH 101 said...

    Let's move on to something useful then Mally Warbucks of the $200 shirt.

    I'm heavily invested in GE stock. I think it's going to get up to the low 20's in price and my plan is to sell it then to simply get out of it and invest in something with far more profit potential. Does this sound like a good plan


    Well, after doing a bit of research after reading your post and checking it’s close at $18.33, with a high and low margin of $9.80 to $18.94, I see it’s close to it yearly high. And after reading that they expect its profit and dividend to rise in 2011. I would expect them to hit a new 52-week high in the near future. I would tend to say that the stock is in bullish phase right now and giving any unforeseen (new) problems with the economy, it should be a good stock to hold on to.

    ReplyDelete
  90. I'm predicting a Fall stock market crash. I was thinking of getting all my stuff into cash the end of summer and getting back in when the market is down.

    I'll hold on to the GE a few months more.

    Thanks for your input.

    ReplyDelete
  91. TRUTH 101 said...
    I'm predicting a Fall stock market crash. I was thinking of getting all my stuff into cash the end of summer and getting back in when the market is down.
    I'll hold on to the GE a few months more.
    Thanks for your input.

    I'm predicting a Fall stock market crash
    I DO agree with that. I pulled out a few months back, and although I lost a few points by doing so, I can't get back in with a clear mind.I am 100 percent out of the market now..
    And I think that Obama knows something that we don't know (maybe something to do with Iran) hence his 360 degree on drilling.
    Just my opinion. So be very careful.

    ReplyDelete
  92. the malcontent wondered:

    Does this sound like a good plan


    You betcha it does. What better planning than kicking your financial future around with a bunch of anonymous posters on the internet?

    The only thing I can say is that if your entire nest egg is/was in GE stock you need to, as they say, diversify.

    And if timing the market were all that easy there would be a lot more wealthy people around. It isn't and there aren't.

    But don't take my word for it.

    http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/investing/92707

    ReplyDelete
  93. That was me who's heavy in GE stock Arthur. Close to a third. I'm watching carefully and have done pretty well since taking over my own portfolio.
    I don't buy mutual funds. I will never buy a mutual fund.

    I see no reason to stick out bear markets in the name of not trying to "time the market." Let the chumps who don't pay attention to their money and trust brokers that have no more clue what they're talking about than the average hobo.

    ReplyDelete

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